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Accord. to liberals, any other factors to school shootings?
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 22 2018, 8:23 pm
According to most democrats/liberals, are there any other factors leading to school shootings, besides easy availability of guns?

Or do most democrats/liberals feel that the main cause of the shootings in schools, is students getting hold of guns too easily and once that problem is solved there will be much less school violence?
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 22 2018, 9:16 pm
I don't identify as a liberal,I identify as an independent, but looking at all data objectively it is the main factor.

The U.S.is the only country with this level of school shootings (most first world countries haven't had any or at most once isolated incident).

Access to movies -the same
Kids being bullied -the same
Levels of depression in kids -the same

The only identifiable difference is the access to guns.
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brkn




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 22 2018, 9:18 pm
Liberal, here - obviously access to guns isn't the only factor involved. However, every time we try to improve access to mental health care we get rejected by the GOP. Many oppose (publicly) making too much of a link between mental health and violence, because people with mental illness are more likely to be victims than perpetrators, and there's a worry that stigmatizing it will make people less likely to seek help. In private, everyone I know admits there's a relationship.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Thu, Feb 22 2018, 9:19 pm
I'm a liberal and many of the beliefs you describe resonate with me.

However, no, I don't think it's the ONLY factor, I think mental health is another one. I'm all for trying to make improvements in that area as well.

Just because there is there more than one possible factor doesn't mean we should stop trying to improve any one specific one.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 22 2018, 9:20 pm
I'm more of a conservative and I think the biggest contributor to all mass shootings is guns.
Once that problem is solved there will be less mass shootings.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 22 2018, 10:18 pm
I think the most important thing we can do right now is dial back the partisanship on this issue. It's not as if Democrats are in favor of school shootings and Republicans are opposed -- or vice versa.

Nor have I heard serious activists of any type -- the people who address this issue even when the cameras aren't rolling -- claim that this is a problem with a single solution. The people who are focused exclusively on one solution or another are primarily reacting emotionally. While that's understandable, it's not what leads to good policy or law.

Security
A common line over the last few days has been, "We care more about the security of our money than about the security of our kids." Urban schools have had metal detectors and armed guards for years. While unfortunate, it may be time to extend some of those practices to suburban schools.

There's also discussion about arming teachers. I'm not sure that's either necessary or prudent, but I would like to see the "gun-free zone" signs come down. Let potential shooters wonder if the librarian is packing heat before they target a school.

I think those of us who send our kids to Jewish schools might be shocked at the lack of security at many suburban public schools. The threat of anti-Semitic violence has made us conscious of buzzing people in rather than leaving doors unlocked; using cameras to check people out before admitting them; and keeping emergency exits set for egress only.

Law Enforcement
One of the things that I hope emerges from the Parkland shooting is a review and overhaul of how law enforcement handles potential threats. The FBI had ample opportunity to stop this shooting, and they failed. Was it a procedural failure? Was it a communication failure? Was it a prioritization failure? I don't know, and neither does anyone else at this point.

Unlike England, France, Germany, et. al., Italy has had almost no successful terrorist attacks by Islamic radicals. Why is that? The answer is that Italian law enforcement is among the best in the world at keeping track of people who are likely to do bad things. Back in the 60s and 70s, when Italy was often the target of Communist terrorists, they weren't so good at preventing attacks. What changed in the intervening years is that Italy got serious about stamping out organized crime -- the Italian mafia. After a few decades of learning how to profile and keep track of potentially dangerous people, they can apply those skills to terrorism.

American law enforcement needs to transfer learning in similar ways.

Mental Health
I heard an interview today with the father of a young woman killed 20 years ago in the Columbine shooting. He said that he'd discovered in his reading that Horace Mann, the pioneer of public education, had focused on "the heart of the child" -- reaching children emotionally and helping them develop good morals and become productive adults. Then the focus of education changed to process -- how do we teach children material most successfully. Now the focus has changed to evaluation -- how can we prove that we've taught the children. He believed that we need to worry less about test scores and AP credits and focus on doing everything possible to make sure children become good people.

There is an estimated one psychiatrist per 1,807 children who need services in the United States, according to the Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice. Washington Post Look at all the requests for mental health recommendations here on Imamother? No database is going to be very helpful if we have no one to evaluate people and place them on the list, and what can we tell a parent whose child needs hospitalization but the waiting list for a bed is weeks?

Gun Legislation
Many, many posters have made arguments for various levels of gun control. But the only way to do that without compromise would be for President Trump to declare martial law and send troops house to house to round up guns. Is that really what we want?

Anything short of that is going to require compromise and working with people who disagree. When the President announced several initiatives earlier this week, I found it ironic that several posters were unhappy that the NRA agreed. This, to them, was evidence that no one was "standing up" to the NRA. I thought it was brilliant strategy: Get the NRA to go along with what you want, and you've just quelled virtually all serious opposition. Get them to do it over and over again and/or force them to bring their own ideas to the table, and you can actually make some of the changes people claim they want.

But if you say, "I only want to reduce gun violence if the NRA can be hobbled in the process," well, what is it you genuinely oppose? Gun violence or the NRA?

In other words, everyone has plenty to do. But the worst thing we could do is tie solutions to ideology. We are going to need to examine every crazy idea, see what works, and do it. If any of us insist that only our ideas are worth pursuing, then we don't want to solve the problem; we're just grandstanding.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 22 2018, 10:57 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
I'm more of a conservative and I think the biggest contributor to all mass shootings is guns.
Once that problem is solved there will be less mass shootings.


I hope youre right, but it seems to me, theres more kids in this country who act on their need/desire to kill, than in other countries, and even with less guns, may resort to other methods because of this need/desire.

Eliminating the easy accessibility of guns is very necessary but I dont think intelligent liberals really think that even if we went further and totally eliminated all guns in the USA, teenage violence will end.


Last edited by Mevater on Thu, Feb 22 2018, 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 22 2018, 11:14 pm
What about the cultural and technological angle to this: the increasingly realistic violent video games on an smartphone near you, and the glorification of violence in pop culture?

(But I'm a conservative, do I get a vote here?) Wink
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 22 2018, 11:29 pm
I've been really behind on the concept of gun control, so I checked this topic out a bit. Some of the things I found out were quite illuminating. It seems that there are plenty of other countries that don't have extremely tight restrictions on gun ownership, but the difference is that the US has by far the most guns per capita. This does seem to be the reason for a much higher rate of gun related deaths.

What I also found interesting was that the majority of gun deaths in the US were not homicides, rather they were either suicides or accidental shooting deaths. The actual homicide rate is much higher in many other countries, such as Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, the Philipines, among many others. I'm sure that you are not surprised Smile. I'm attaching a link so that you can study the chart yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....._rate

What I found even more interesting was a recent article by "The Atlantic". This article focused on a country that has extremely liberal gun control laws, such as allowing semi-automatic weapons, yet they have much lower gun related deaths than does the US. Some of the reasons seem to be more extensive background checks, unwillingness to sell guns to persons with a history of mental illness, and widespread gun safety education. I am linking the article here as well:

https://www.theatlantic.com/in.....3448/

Seems like things aren't quite that simple!
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 12:34 am
Fox wrote:
I think the most important thing we can do right now is dial back the partisanship on this issue. It's not as if Democrats are in favor of school shootings and Republicans are opposed -- or vice versa.

Nor have I heard serious activists of any type -- the people who address this issue even when the cameras aren't rolling -- claim that this is a problem with a single solution. The people who are focused exclusively on one solution or another are primarily reacting emotionally. While that's understandable, it's not what leads to good policy or law.

Gun Legislation
Many, many posters have made arguments for various levels of gun control. But the only way to do that without compromise would be for President Trump to declare martial law and send troops house to house to round up guns. Is that really what we want?

Anything short of that is going to require compromise and working with people who disagree. When the President announced several initiatives earlier this week, I found it ironic that several posters were unhappy that the NRA agreed. This, to them, was evidence that no one was "standing up" to the NRA. I thought it was brilliant strategy: Get the NRA to go along with what you want, and you've just quelled virtually all serious opposition. Get them to do it over and over again and/or force them to bring their own ideas to the table, and you can actually make some of the changes people claim they want.

But if you say, "I only want to reduce gun violence if the NRA can be hobbled in the process," well, what is it you genuinely oppose? Gun violence or the NRA?


I personally am thrilled that Trump seems like he wants to take some steps towards gun control. I’m all for raising the legal age to 21 and increasing the strength of the background check. Not as into arming teachers; the teachers I know are unprepared and wouldn’t want to take that on.

I strongly dislike the nra and feel that they have blood on their hands. But if trump can get them to not block these proposals from going through I will be very happy.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 12:51 am
Makes you wonder what the top honchos at the NRA would do if some of their kids would get killed at school.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 5:23 am
Honestly, I think it is mostly the guns. It is true the USA has some massive social problems in the inner cities which are a legacy of slavery, and subsequent racism, and that won't be fixed in a day even if there is the will to do it and a lot of gun violence occurs in those enviroments.

Switzerland is a small cohesive country. But they also have strong background checks for gun owners and many other regulations not present in the USA.

BTW most school/mass shooters are suicidal. Do they really care that the maths teacher might be carrying a gun? With an automatic weapon they can kill many kids before a teacher is able to react. So they might kill a few less.

Most countries when they introduce gun bans have some type of buy back scheme. Sure, some people will still have guns. But they won't be able to buy new ones easily. And owning a gun will be a crime.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 9:58 am
Raisin wrote:
Honestly, I think it is mostly the guns.


Dunno. With those violent blood hungry tendencies, they'll only find another tool, like "white powder" or running kids over by car, or some other method that they can kill many with.
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 10:04 am
Mevater wrote:
Dunno. With those violent blood hungry tendencies, they'll only find another tool, like "white powder" or running kids over by car, or some other method that they can kill many with.


But you don't see that in schools in countries without access to guns. Even if a kid does bring a knife to school, he can't cause the death and carnage that a gun can.

Saying they'll use something else is a complete fallacy, a straw man argument.

Look at Israel, if lone terrorists (Not talking about the, even in the U.S., relatively rare school incidents) had access to guns and not just knives don't you think the death toll would be infinitely higher.

Yes, someone could hit another kid over the head with a vacuum cleaner, and people are not asking for regulation of vacuum cleaners, but it is a whole different level of death and injury.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 10:13 am
Mevater wrote:
Dunno. With those violent blood hungry tendencies, they'll only find another tool, like "white powder" or running kids over by car, or some other method that they can kill many with.


But you can't kill 17 people as quickly with a car or other methods.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 10:16 am
Mevater wrote:
I hope youre right, but it seems to me, theres more kids in this country who act on their need/desire to kill, than in other countries, and even with less guns, may resort to other methods because of this need/desire.

Eliminating the easy accessibility of guns is very necessary but I dont think intelligent liberals really think that even if we went further and totally eliminated all guns in the USA, teenage violence will end.


But at least 17 people won't die at once.
Stabbings will kill fewer people at a time.
Car rammings will kill fewer people.
Guns can kill so many people in such a short time!
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 10:52 am
Raisin wrote:
Honestly, I think it is mostly the guns. It is true the USA has some massive social problems in the inner cities which are a legacy of slavery, and subsequent racism, and that won't be fixed in a day even if there is the will to do it and a lot of gun violence occurs in those enviroments.

Switzerland is a small cohesive country. But they also have strong background checks for gun owners and many other regulations not present in the USA.

BTW most school/mass shooters are suicidal. Do they really care that the maths teacher might be carrying a gun? With an automatic weapon they can kill many kids before a teacher is able to react. So they might kill a few less.

Most countries when they introduce gun bans have some type of buy back scheme. Sure, some people will still have guns. But they won't be able to buy new ones easily. And owning a gun will be a crime.


Black children aren't committing these crimes, white Christian males are. Let's keep that n perspective.
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 10:56 am
Rubber Ducky wrote:
What about the cultural and technological angle to this: the increasingly realistic violent video games on an smartphone near you, and the glorification of violence in pop culture?

(But I'm a conservative, do I get a vote here?) Wink


Every other first world country has teens playing the same games at the same rates, they don't have school shootings at the same rate. Ergo, it is not the games.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 11:08 am
amother wrote:
Black children aren't committing these crimes, white Christian males are. Let's keep that n perspective.


Lots of gun deaths are in inner cities. Not the ones you might see splashed across the news, because 15 year old dies in crossfire from drug war is not as exciting as 17 teens die in a suburban school.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Fri, Feb 23 2018, 11:20 am
Raisin wrote:
Lots of gun deaths are in inner cities. Not the ones you might see splashed across the news, because 15 year old dies in crossfire from drug war is not as exciting as 17 teens die in a suburban school.


I thought we were talking about mass shootings, the thread is called SCHOOL SHOOTINGS. I mean, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all if it weren't for mass shootings, especially Parkland.
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