First names or titles?

Platinum Member Joined: Jun 09 2005 Posts: 11840

It takes one person to start a trend. Wink

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Posted: Mon, Feb 25 2008, 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: re: First names or titles?

Posted: Mon, Feb 25 2008, 4:29 pm Post subject:

Posted: Mon, Feb 25 2008, 5:15 pm Post subject: re: First names or titles?

Ruchel, you should know of all people that a common behavior, even amongst frum people does not necessarily make it okay!

mumoo, I am trying to find that source and will bli neder post it tonight.
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Posted: Mon, Feb 25 2008, 5:26 pm Post subject: re: First names or titles?

Yes I know something common is not necessarily ok!
Now, my rav allows friendships so I suppose he also allows calling someone by first name in a context where it's normal, and when if anything NOT doing it would attract attention and make people have thoughts about "are we close or not"...

Posted: Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: re: First names or titles?

Posted: Tue, Feb 26 2008, 6:50 am Post subject: re: First names or titles?

thanks mumoo Smile

Not for a particular purpose. He doesn't say to search for these friendships. But if they happen (you must understand that here there isn't a strong separation of genders, except maybe in the most charedi circles - but even there for example the shabbes kiddush is mixed, mixed seatings... and I saw men and women talking), because you feel this person is interesting and nice, it's ok.
He warns though that if feelings "develop", you'll have to act quick because it would be unhealthy. Either turn it into a shidduch if you're single and it's mutual (for having read rabbis biographies, I remember a few of them were friends first with their wife), or break.

BH on all of my friendships with boys, only a few ones ended badly because the boy started developing feelings and I didn't want. Sure I was sad to break the friendship, but on the whole it was very worth it for me to have these friends. One helped me tremendously when I was afraid of not finding my bashert, other one motivated me constantly for frumkeit, another one supported me a lot when I was pregnant...

Posted: Tue, Feb 26 2008, 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: re: First names or titles?

Posted: Tue, Feb 26 2008, 4:31 pm Post subject: re: First names or titles?

Well, if it was the case, my rav, a man, would know it and forbid the whole thing. No, I can assure you these guys had no feeling for me except friendship or big/young brother sometimes.

These statements are taken very, very out of context. I meant to say problems only happened a couple of times, so the benefit was big (more friends). I also don't believe in men developing feelings for all girls they befriend. If it was the case, what would have prevented them from asking a shidduch with me, in the case of the frum ones? or even of all the Jewish ones?

Also, some of my friends were engaged, or in a relationship, or I know their "type" of girls and I was faaaaar.

Posted: Tue, Feb 26 2008, 4:39 pm Post subject: re: First names or titles?

Mumoo and Ruchel, I see a certain level of validity to both your comments. On the one hand, I grew up speaking "vous" and I was taught that "tu" is personal. I have met many people to asked me to use "tu" or when I have used "vous" said I was sooo formal. Even my dh uses "tu" and often tells me is betterémore acceptable to say tu béc vous can be perceived as insulting. That said, I still often find myself saying vous and watching my friends Rolling Eyes

.

On the flip side, although it sometimes seems awkward, with the exception of very few people I say "first name" for women and Mr. or Reb or Rabbi or Dr. for men. If a woman holds a title, I will often use that unless we are very sociable with each other.

I find this difference is also magnified if the person of the opposire gender is married or not. The men my husband befriended while in Yeshiva who came to us as bochurim (once we were married) I still tend to refer to by their first names. It's how they were introdiced to me (like, dh would come home and say toguests, this is my wife Rachel and then to me he would say this is Yaakov and Sruli)

Posted: Tue, Feb 26 2008, 5:38 pm Post subject: re: First names or titles?

I hear, montrealmommy, I assume its the same thing like in Spanish tú for familiar and Ustèd for formal. But like you said when you say 'vous' it can be insulting, I always felt when speaking Spanish that saying tú posed a greater opportunity to insult than the other way around.

I read here that people are reluctant to change how they call someone from how they were first introduced. But when a girl my children are familiar with gets married, she becomes Mrs. to them. She has changed her status and so her title (and level of kavod given). I think its the same for unmarried bochurim.

Posted: Tue, Feb 26 2008, 10:26 pm Post subject: re: First names or titles?

By in large, I agree with you mumoo. the difference I think is that here (in Montreal) which is very european in it's mentality, wants an atmosphere of familiarity. so using the formal "vous" comes off sounding haughty and nose-in-the-air. I still use it inspite of comments and looks, and most of my friends have come to accept that part of me.

As for Bachurim, yes, to my children, bochur so-and-so becomes Mr. so-and-so and his wife Mrs. so-and-so. But between adults, when she is introduced, her first name is often used and when the kids are not around (which is not all that often) I do find myslef calling him by his first name. I should probably become more aware of this - in that respect I would have to say being aware that I am always mechanech my kids is a good thing!

Platinum Member Joined: Oct 27 2005 Posts: 6728

for good friends of dh I am also one who tends to not use any name, but if I must, which happens once in a very blue moon, it'll either be a um, sarcastic/jokey Mr so & so (like picture a guy with a heavy brooklyn accept going "ay (as in hey) mista ____", otherwise it'd come with too much in depth whats your problem type of conversation) , or their name said more formally. At work I call whatever it is socially and businessly expected from me, its part of the job, and it is formal even with first name if you dont be too chummy imo. Titles I automatically use for a certain amount older pple than I, even if dh is good buddies with them, but I do the same for women.