Anatomy, dissection and Torah

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HindaRochel

Thu, Jan 24 2008, 6:52 am

I am listening to a podcast (Kera Thinks, True Story of Grey's Anatomy). Obviously Torah law forbids donating one's body to science, but there is so much that has been learned from studying cadavers.

For those who are in medicine, what is the Rabbinical take on the subject? Are you allowed to work on the body of someone who is Jewish? (if you somehow knew, I understand they are kept annoymous.) How do we justify making use of this knowledge? (no I don't propose to not use the knowledge, I am wondering if Rebbaim have spoken to the topic.) How else could we gain the knowledge that we have gained from cadavers?

Interesting note: the man who wrote the book, True Story of Grey's Anatomy, stated that the hands and the face are the two most personal parts of the human body and they are both kept covered until and unless it is necessary to dissect them.

ss321

Thu, Jan 24 2008, 8:49 am

HindaRochel wrote:

For those who are in medicine, what is the Rabbinical take on the subject? Are you allowed to work on the body of someone who is Jewish? (if you somehow knew, I understand they are kept annoymous.)

I think youre not allowed to if you know theyre jewish. that what I was told before gross anat lab first year, by a guy the year above me.

IDK how they do it in the israeli schools (sackler, ben gurion, technion), where they get the bodies from, I kinda always wondered, and hoped that they werent jews donating their bodies!

I also know its really complicated for a kohen, w/ all the dead bodies, because if theres a chance of a chance of a chance that one of them had a jewish mother, major problem to be under the same room. plus touching a dead person (I think even a [gentile]) is assur for them. I know of only one kohen who went to medical school, and I never asked him how he did it and dealt with these issues. Id be curious to know though too.....

HindaRochel wrote:

I am wondering if Rebbaim have spoken to the topic.) How else could we gain the knowledge that we have gained from cadavers?

I went once to a shiur on medical ethics, and I think it was rabbi tendler from riverdale (but dont quote me on this) whospoke abt that the importance of the knowledge we gain from dissections and the great sacrifice these people make donating their bodies and all.

HindaRochel wrote:

stated that the hands and the face are the two most personal parts of the human body and they are both kept covered until and unless it is necessary to dissect them.

so we kept the head covered, and only uncover the body parts we neeeded. like if we were doing thoracic, we had their head covered, arms if it was poss but sometiems not, and everything below the stomach.

sorry I dont know more...I only ask about halachos that pertain to me when it comes to medical issues, so I found out what I needed to know and that was the end of that...

maybe someone else knows more?

chavamom maybe? IDK if they do dissections in nursing school these days?

lubaussie

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 3:13 am

It's not true that Jewish law forbids organ donation.

In fact Halocha permits, while still alive:
skin, kidney, part of the liver, bone marrow, and I can't think what else offhand

After death, there are obviously many many discussions and arguments about it but it's not just black and white, it's a very complicated issue.

middy

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:39 am

when I asked before A and P, I was told that most jews don't donate their bodies to science, so I didn't have to worry whether or not the cadaver was jewish. I know some ppl specifically look for a black bec less probable that it's jewish.

middy

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:41 am

as far as organ donation goes, it's not simple at all. for one view see "contemporary biomedical ethical issues and jewish law" by fred rosner, md

amother

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:53 am

Chava wrote:

Are Jews allowed to receive organs from deceased donors, such as heart, lungs, corneas, etc.? I'm assuming if they can't donate, they can't receive. What do people do who are in dire need? As far as live donations, not many people do live donations of kidneys or livers, is a person in need allowed to receive from a deceased donor who signed an organ donor card? If so, how is this reconciled?

Ruchel

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:54 am

I think you can receive, as for donating (once dead, alive is ok) it's a machlokes between the different rabbis.

amother

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:56 am

Why is it okay for us to receive but not to donate? It doesn't seem right that we can partake of this miracle and generosity, but don't participate in giving.

Ruchel

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:59 am

If halacha forbids Jews to have their body "cut" but not non Jews, that would explain why we can receive (since we don't know who gave, or since it's already done and they're "lenient" because it will save your life).
If the thing is forbidden for everyone, it's probably because when you receive it's already done, so leniency to save a life, but when you register to donate for example it's not done yet.

I don't know, just my idea.

Also, we don't understand halacha all the time and it can seem unfair (like no touching after a miscarriage lo aleinu).

chaimsmom

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 9:52 am

middy wrote:

I had a cadaver that wasn't circumcised. Most of the people in the class had never seen an uncricumcised male before.

chavamom

Wed, Feb 27 2008, 1:14 am

I was told that since rov (most) of the people who donate are not Jewish, it is highly unlikely to be a Jew and therefore not a problem. I was told that I should apologize to the meis for any embarrassment, much like you do at a tahara. I wasn't told much else. It turned out to not be nearly the big deal that I thought it would be halachically.

I also know a cohen who went to med school. He was told to double glove IIRC. It's definitely a bedieved situation, but the guy became frum while starting med school.

amother

Wed, Feb 27 2008, 8:10 am

chavamom wrote:

I was told that since rov of the people who donate are not Jewish, it is highly unlikely to be a Jew and therefore not a problem. I was told that I should apologize to the meis for any embarrassment, much like you do at a tahara. I wasn't told much else. It turned out to not be nearly the big deal that I thought it would be halachically.

Not true. I know plenty of Jews who have signed organ donor cards. Maybe not frum Jews, but they are Jewish.

HindaRochel

Wed, Feb 27 2008, 8:29 am

amother wrote:

chavamom wrote:

Not true. I know plenty of Jews who have signed organ donor cards. Maybe not frum Jews, but they are Jewish.

Organ donation is different then donating for science. Organ donations is mutar according to some Rebbaim, mine included, if to save a life. ie if your heat is going to another human being. It wouldn't be permissible to study.

amother

Wed, Feb 27 2008, 8:32 am

HindaRochel wrote:

amother wrote:

chavamom wrote:

Not true. I know plenty of Jews who have signed organ donor cards. Maybe not frum Jews, but they are Jewish.

I recently decided to sign an organ donor card. My husband and I are discussing and looking into it, to make sure it's okay.

chavamom

Wed, Feb 27 2008, 9:06 am

amother wrote:

chavamom wrote:

Not true. I know plenty of Jews who have signed organ donor cards. Maybe not frum Jews, but they are Jewish.

The ROV means the MAJORITY are not Jewish and hence the psak.

chavamom

Wed, Feb 27 2008, 9:19 am

Perhaps if I wrote it "rove" people would understand what I meant? (I hate transliteration.....)

HindaRochel

Wed, Feb 27 2008, 9:26 am

Quote:

I recently decided to sign an organ donor card. My husband and I are discussing and looking into it, to make sure it's okay.

All depends on who you ask and how it is done.
I should sign one...after checking with my Rav of course how...I don't know the particulars.[/quote]

chocolate moose

Wed, Feb 27 2008, 10:04 am

I'm not sure about kohanim, but for someon Jewish in medical school, I undertand it's not such a shaylah and that's why I didn't make a fuss when dd's class went to the Bodies exhibit.

For darn sure a dr needs to learn on real bodies, not just picrues in a book.

Motek

Thu, Feb 28 2008, 12:51 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

I didn't make a fuss when dd's class went to the Bodies exhibit.

Why did they go - isn't she studying to be a dental assistant?

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