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Forum -> Working Women

Not paying on time

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Seraph

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 10:34 am

This isnt so much working women, but still job related.

My husbands been working for 6 mos for the same company. They always paid him on time.
His current paycheck is 6 days late already, and we're really strapped for cash, especially with pesach coming.
My husband said his boss isnt the type to just stam delay a paycheck, he must just not have the money or something happened.
My husband won't even ask his boss whats with the paycheck.
I told him its a halacha- you must pay your worker on time.

What do you suggest I do?

Would you nudge your boss about your paycheck if you knew your company wasnt doing so well financially and its possible its just taking him some time to get together the money?

pinkheart

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:04 am

I would just ask him, in a very nice way what the delay is about.
He should know that you are waiting for it, so that as soon as some money is available he should pay your dh.

Tamiri

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:10 am

Lo talin = you are not allowed to withhold.
The person owed money, is also not allowed to keep in their heart "teenah" against someone who owes you money. It's your OBLIGATION to remind someone if they owe you - did you know that?
It doesn't matter if the business isn't doing so well, the guy has to pay your husband or at least come up with a good excuse so they can deal with the late payment together.

smiley:)

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:17 am

I'd feel bad for the company that they aren't doing well but at the same time they have a responsibility towards their workers. If I was the boss I couldn't do it to employees. The company's problem doesnt have to, and shouldnt becomes the employee's problem.

Marion

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:30 am

I've been in those shoes. I'd have DH just ask...no need to accuse. "By the way, I was wondering if I could surprise my wife with my paycheque in time for the chag..."

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:31 am

There's no reason to feel guilty about asking where one's paycheck is. You've earned it! You have a right to expect your parnossah which you've worked for.

Now, depending on the company's reason, there's different ways to deal with it, but if an employer wants employees, he/she has got to pay! It's better for them to be honest and let people go so they can find other income, then take their time and energy and not pay them!

freidasima

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:32 am

More important, I'd start looking for another job...fast.

Fox

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:44 am

Tamiri wrote:

It doesn't matter if the business isn't doing so well, the guy has to pay your husband or at least come up with a good excuse so they can deal with the late payment together.

This is a misstatement of the halacha. My grandfather used to say that "you're not a man until you've had to make payroll," and I become more convinced of it every day. The halacha is that the employer has to pay if he has the money. I am not sure how a "good excuse" is a factor, though it might make the employee feel slightly better. Obviously, it is better if the employer is as honest as possible about why the check is delayed and whether this may be a problem in the future.

Having been on the employer's side of the fence, though, my guess is that the employer is terribly, terribly embarrassed and cannot bring himself to admit how bad things really are. My advice would be to for your husband to mention it to the boss, but cushion the conversation by saying that he knows things have been difficult lately, etc. If his boss realizes that your husband is sensitive to the difficulties, he may be more forthcoming about the problem.

Though this is not directed at the OP, I think it's very important for employees and their families to be realistic about the pros and cons of various employment arrangements.

For example, if it's critical you get your paycheck on the dot and not be subject to market conditions, you need to work for a larger or very deep-pocketed firm. The flip side of that, though, is that such firms are usually somewhat inflexible about employees' individual needs. They have policies and procedures and don't like to deviate from them just to help someone out. They are likely to simply lay off employees rather than delay paychecks.

A smaller or younger company often offers far more flexibility, but there's a greater risk that they won't have the financial resources to make it through downturns without some suffering.

Naturally, we'd all like to work for a place that combines the best of both worlds, but those are fairly limited, and appearances or short-term experiences may be deceiving.

Seraph

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:58 am

freidasima wrote:

More important, I'd start looking for another job...fast.

not so simple, my husband doesnt have the best job qualifications, and not much experience. and he enjoys the job.

chaylizi

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 12:05 pm

Fox wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

It doesn't matter if the business isn't doing so well, the guy has to pay your husband or at least come up with a good excuse so they can deal with the late payment together.

You are right, but the employer still has an obligation to explain. Not being open about inability to pay, is nearly as bad as not paying. The employer is obligated to go to OP's husband & explain & offer some sort of time frame or arrangement.

Love My Babes

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 12:22 pm

fox wrote:

This is a misstatement of the halacha

are u sure about that? perhaps what ur grandfather said was justifying employees who pay late due to lack of money for whatever reason, but the halacha clearly states that an emplyer must pay his employee on time.
ive been in those shoes before and as uncomfortable as it is, I went to my boss and said, "do you have something for me?"... yes its not a comfortable thing to asked and im sure the boss feels even stupider, but if I remember to come to work everyday, he should remember to pay his employees.

Fox

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 1:31 pm

smiley:) wrote:

The company's problem doesnt have to, and shouldnt becomes the employee's problem.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you didn't really mean this the way it sounds. "Companies" are not nameless, faceless entities. They are people -- bosses, workers, families, etc. If, as an employee, you don't consider the company's problems to be your problems, too . . . well, please don't apply for a job at my firm!

marion wrote:

I've been in those shoes. I'd have DH just ask...no need to accuse. "By the way, I was wondering if I could surprise my wife with my paycheque in time for the chag..."

This absolutely perfect, Marion! No drama, no snippiness -- asking while keeping the focus on the positive.

Love My Babe wrote:

The comment about my grandfather wasn't related to the halacha. Yes, I'm relatively sure; however, I'll check it out tonight.

My grandfather wasn't speaking about the specific issue of on-time paychecks. He was making the point that people who have never had the experience of being responsible for someone else's parnosseh can be very quick to judge and very self-righteous.

This is one of the reasons I make sure my children get some kind of entrepreneurial experience. I do not allow them to work as counselors at camps or do other typical frum teenager jobs. They are responsible for coming up with ideas, making business plans, hiring assistants, and running their businesses. Sometimes they've made a lot of money; other times, not so much. I want them to understand that "working" doesn't simply mean showing up every day and collecting a paycheck.

Obviously, we don't know the details about OP's husband's boss. It's possible that he's a tight-fisted jerk who lives extravagantly while being horrible to his employees. If that's the case, then there's no need to be extra-nice about the late paycheck. But if his prior behavior has been one of care and consideration for his employees, we should assume that the paycheck is delayed because he doesn't have the money.

If I were in the situation, I would follow Marion's advice as well as ask someone close to the boss if his family had food, etc. I've known many, many business owners who paid everyone before they paid themselves -- my own family has literally lived on rice and noodles for a few weeks at a time when things were tough.

smiley:)

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 2:46 pm

"I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you didn't really mean this the way it sounds. "Companies" are not nameless, faceless entities. They are people -- bosses, workers, families, etc. If, as an employee, you don't consider the company's problems to be your problems, too . . . well, please don't apply for a job at my firm! "

No, sorry but I still agree with what I wrote. The company's problems being yours is only ok to a point. When you have a contract it says the conditions they expect of you and what money you will get in exchange. In general a person applies for a job with the expectation that they will be paid regularly for a service they provide. If it was not originally discussed that money may be withheld for whatever amount of time, that is dishonest on the part of the employer. If an employer would outright say money will be delayed sometimes/often he wouldnt have too many candidates knocking his door down for an interview.

Love My Babes

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 5:41 pm

I agree with smiley, and im sorry fox but I totally disagree with you. if u own a business, under normal circumstances, ppl dont just work for u becacuse they want the day to pass. they come every day so they can come home with money, not to come home at the end of the month and worry how to pay bills after goin to work every day. as an employee, ppl feel bad when business isnt going well, but its not their fault. u hired someone, u pay them. if u cant pay them, let them go.

I would not get up early every morning to be at work on time, do my job diligantly, and then at the end of the week not only no money, but no im sorry either in op's case. that 100 percent wrong. if a boss would come over and say, is it ok if I give u the money next week, thats one thing. but to totally ignore the situtation as if nothing happened, thanks anyway. ur not worth my time.

red sea

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 5:45 pm

While you may care about the company, payroll is supposed to be priority #1 along with the electric bill.

Fox

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 10:02 pm

smiley:) wrote:

When you have a contract it says the conditions they expect of you

So according to you, I'm within my rights to immediately fire anyone who isn't doing the job he claimed he could do and for which I hired him. I'd have no employees left! I won't bore you with specific stories -- suffice it to say that I can think of only one or two employees whom I've hired in the past decade who actually were able to do what they were hired to do -- and what they claimed they could do.

Employees -- including nice frum employees -- routinely overstate their qualifications. They figure they'll get the job and work out the details later. Except that they're usually not able to finesse the situation, and the employer, who has already spent an average of $4000 recruiting and training the person, generally sighs and tries to bring them up to speed.

Oh, and if there's no way to salvage the situation? Well, firing them often means paying a higher unemployment tax the next year.

Love My Babe wrote:

as an employee, ppl feel bad when business isnt going well, but its not their fault.

Really? How do you know? I have a nice frum lady working for me who has actually cost me two important customers. I'm always on the verge of firing her, but she does a good job in a few other areas, plus, she's the support of her family, so I've tried to work with her to improve. Perhaps I should re-think this approach and follow everyone's black/white advice for dealing with employees.

red sea wrote:

While you may care about the company, payroll is supposed to be priority #1 along with the electric bill.

Um, right. This goes without saying.

Let me reiterate my initial response and break it down, since several posts have "disagreed" with me by actually echoing things I'd said or agreed with previously.

1. If the delayed paycheck is out of character for the OP's boss, then something is probably wrong -- he probably doesn't have the money. It seems odd that he would suddenly avoid paying a worker for no reason.

2. He should say something, but he is probably too embarrassed.

3. The OP's husband is correct to ask the boss about his check in a non-accusatory fashion.

4. If the OP is concerned about his boss as a fellow Yid, he should inquire to make sure that the boss's family has enough food, etc., and if he finds that they don't, perhaps discreetly contact a chesed organization that might help.

Here's what I find disturbing: most imamothers are full of rachmones and eager to judge people favorably, whether the topic is husbands, children, neighbors, or family members. But when the topic turns to "bosses", there seems to be no acknowledgment that a boss's actions -- however inappropriate -- can be the result of human weakness and embarrassment.

Perhaps it's the double-standard that bothers me: employers are somehow expected to be perfect in their relations with their workers, but employees -- well, they're only human. Perhaps I've also become cynical about how "diligently" employees always claim to work. My experiences suggest that there are definitely two sides to this.

Again, this doesn't mean the OP's husband's boss is behaving appropriately; it just means that he's a human being who also has problems.

red sea

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:35 pm

I wasn't disagreeing with you fox. But I think he should ask, but if they are in dire straits they should tell him if its down to being totally almost bankrupt.

lamplighter

Tue, Apr 15 2008, 11:38 pm

marion, that way of asking is just awesome!!!!
kudos to u

freidasima

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 5:18 am

Breslov, all that may be true, but if the firm is in difficulties, he may not be able to be kept on in any case if things get bad. Hence better to start looking now right after Pesach...just in case.

Fox

Wed, Apr 16 2008, 12:29 pm

freidasima wrote:

Breslov, all that may be true, but if the firm is in difficulties, he may not be able to be kept on in any case if things get bad. Hence better to start looking now right after Pesach...just in case.

Believe it or not, I agree completely with Freidasima! If DH's boss has always been a nice guy, it would be perfectly acceptable to say something like Marion recommended and maybe follow it up after Pesach with something along the lines of "I know how tough things are right now, and I really enjoy working with you. Unfortunately, my family is also in a pretty difficult financial situation. I'd be happy to look for another full-time position and reduce my hours here. I don't want to cause you more problems, but it might be better for both of us in the short term. Then, when business gets better, I would be honored, b'li neder, to return full-time."

As I mentioned, the effectiveness of this is totally dependent on the boss being (a) a nice guy; and (b) a decent businessman. But if DH is good employee, the boss will definitely want to work something out that reduces the payroll in the short-term while maintaining everyone's good will.

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