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I dont get it - naming baby after non



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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 17 2008, 9:52 pm
Why do people have a problem naming children after non frum relatives?
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allgood




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 17 2008, 9:55 pm
Many people believe (let's not argue if it's true or not) that a name of a person in some way influences the person. Therefore by naming a child after a non frum relative they are afraid that some of that person's character traits that caused them not to be frum may be passed over.
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Mrs. XYZ




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 17 2008, 9:56 pm
Because some feel that the childs namesake might have an affect on the child. Therefore many people try to name after a tzaddik.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 17 2008, 10:00 pm
Yes, when you name for someone you are not just honoring them but hoping that the person's good qualities will be passed on to the child also. Some people feel that if the person wasn't frum, what kind of attributes are they passing on to their child? Personally we don't have an issue with this and I would like to think that ANY relative frum or not has plenty of good traits to pass along... but I can understand why many people shy away from it.
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dillie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 17 2008, 10:26 pm
people also have a problem naming for those who died young or childless. it's not a halachic issue, but one that is more about how certain things resonate emotionally.
I think that even people who make their decisions on a completely rational basis tend to try and... cover all their bases?... when making decisions about their children.
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 12:01 am
I see it as elevating the person's Neshama to a Torahdik way of life.
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TheBeinoni




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 12:14 am
YESHASettler wrote:
I see it as elevating the person's Neshama to a Torahdik way of life.


I COMPLETELY agree.

You can always add a name to offset the "bad" attributes (I heard some ppl recommend this in a diff thread.. I have no problem tho )
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cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 12:25 am
I named my son after my great grandfather who I loved dearly and who was not Orthodox. He was a strong personality, spirited but infinitely kind hearted, and a seeker until the end of his life. These are wonderful traits I would love my son to have. Whether or not he watched television on Shabbos has nothing to do with what kind of person he was, and I don't understand how people can confuse religious observance with character.
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mimivan




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 2:32 am
What about someone who wasn't born into a frum home, and so didn't understand Yiddishkeit, but had wonderful middos?

A good friend of mine whose FIL, a holocaust survivor, was born frei, was a real mentsch and began discovering YIdishkeit late in life...He was davening with a minyan every am, keeping Shabbos and Kosher, at the time the couple asked him to be the sandek at the baby's bris. Some lady from Mea Shearim, who was very "pious" and had no idea the man was making steps toward Teshuva, complained in a loud voice to the DIL that it was "lo matim" that a frei person like her FIL should be a sandek! HOw embarrassed for her..


Well, her FIL is niftar and she is pregnant...if she has a boy, I hope she shows people like this "tzadekes" from Mea Shearim and names the child after her FIL, who did the best spiritually with what he had...
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bubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 4:17 am
My DD had a new DD 4 days ago. Their other children have the names of the Rebbe & Rebbetzin. Imagine our delight & surprise when they named her for my aunt, who adored my kids, and she herself never had children. She was MO & was a good person, but even though my mother hoped that someone would give her sister a name, we weren't expecting it. But my DD remembers how her great aunt loved her, spoiled her, and was happy to do it, even though she wasn't Chassidish.

I agree with Cassandra very strongly. Mimivan, your friend should have a safe & easy delivery of a healthy baby & she should follow her heart in the name. She sounds a wonderful person!

The Lubavitche Rebbe speaks strongly about names being important & obviously, no one will name for a Rasha, even if it's a close relative. But to dismiss a person's Neshoma as being unworthy of climbing higher in Gan Eden just because he/she wasn't Frum...I don't think we should be that arrogant, even though a name should always be the parents' choice.

Sometimes it's very hard for Bubbies & Zaidies to keep quiet, though Wink I did, & look what happened!! Surprised Very Happy Very Happy
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 5:52 am
bubby wrote:
The Lubavitche Rebbe speaks strongly about names being important & obviously, no one will name for a Rasha, even if it's a close relative.

Where do you learn about not naming for a rasha? And who qualifies as "rasha"?

We have a family member who wants us to name a boy (we don't have one yet, so far this is all in theory) after his father. The problem is, his father was an alcoholic and compulsive gambler who abused his wife and kids and drove his family into poverty. Our rabbi said there's no problem to use the name, since the name itself is fine and many good people have that name (for example, if the name were Ezra Yosef, both names are names of tzadikim and there are Torah scholars and baalei middot tovot with the name, so the child won't get davka a negative influence from it).

I still refuse to use it, just because I can't imagine explaining to a son that he was named after a person like that. Kids want to be proud of the people they're named after, not ashamed. If he was just non-religious it would be different, as long as he had plenty of good characteristics to make his namesakes proud.
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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 7:40 am
I just have seen it mentioned in passing a bunch & I really dont understand because I feel as some of you above, that its more about who the person was, not everyone is destined to be born into a frum home & even if they never accomplished keeping shabbos & kashrus it doesnt make them a rasha, they could in essence be a good soul & have kept many other mitzvos. I think naming after a 'frum' abusive addict is more problematic. Most people who are faced with naming after pple who are not frum are not talking about distant relatives. For ex; if someone was talking about their very own non frum grandparent or parent who raised them & well enough values were passed on that they ended up back on the path, why would s/o feel a problem? Many a child named after great tzaddikim are otd, its no guarantee. See but its not the same as the bad mazal thing because I have heard numerous stories of those going down bad & adding a name change away the badness.
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cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 8:17 am
bubby wrote:
My DD had a new DD 4 days ago. Their other children have the names of the Rebbe & Rebbetzin. Imagine our delight & surprise when they named her for my aunt, who adored my kids, and she herself never had children. She was MO & was a good person, but even though my mother hoped that someone would give her sister a name, we weren't expecting it. But my DD remembers how her great aunt loved her, spoiled her, and was happy to do it, even though she wasn't Chassidish.


Mazal tov! I think that's so nice. The addition to my story is that my same son is also named after another great grandfather (he has three names total) who was always frum even though he was born in America and this was hard, was a talmid chacham, never took a job where he would have to work on shabbos and wrote pamphlets promoting Jewish observance to others (a la the Maxwell House hagadda) but he was a much colder person and I didn't feel as connected to him even though he was my last gg to pass away, when I was 20. It felt so much more important to me to name after my other gg who I felt close to and admired for his personal qualities and the connection we had.

Quote:
I still refuse to use it, just because I can't imagine explaining to a son that he was named after a person like that. Kids want to be proud of the people they're named after, not ashamed. If he was just non-religious it would be different, as long as he had plenty of good characteristics to make his namesakes proud.


I don't think I could name my child after a person like that either.
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bubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 8:24 am
Ora, I never said the Rebbe speaks about not naming for a Rasha, I said "obviously..." I have no idea if the Rebbe talks about that. I know the Rebbe discusses the importance of choosing a name, but I'll have to ask SIL for the sources. As for the definition of a Rasha, I'd say the person you described comes close. Again, that's my opinion; it's all subjective. Others will no doubt have their own descriptions.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 8:24 am
One of my children is named for a relative who was a frum and very learned man. His middle name is for his great-uncle, who wasn't frum and was also a rascal -- kind of wild with women and in life in general. But he matured and died a hero, in the US army in WWII, so he made a wonderful contribution in his brief lifetime. Nobody had been named for him, he died childless and there were others to name for (some of whom died in the Holocaust), so I think we surprised everyone by remembering him, but it made our family happy. I knew it was his last chance to be remembered in this way, and I'm glad we did it.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 18 2008, 1:35 pm
I don't understand the obsession either. Because then we shouldn't name after frum people who messed up in any serious way either? and isn't it seeing only the bad when we are told to think good? seeing only bad not only in the person, but in the family? the non frum person was probably named for someone frum, and so on, dozens of times! and the whole transmission chain should be cut for ONE "mess up"?

Now, a rasha, I understand not naming after.
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manhattanmom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 24 2008, 11:03 pm
In both my family and my husband's family there are people we would definitely name our kids for even though they were not frum. They were not reshaim at all! They were all of previous generations who grew up in households where their parents were greatly influenced by the haskalah movement so growing up as a "classic tinok shenishbah" they just had no idea. They were all WONDERFUL people with very fine middos. They were not michalel shabbos knowingly or even to be rebellious. I don't really see how me naming my children after my grandparents who I loved and admired is really different than someone naming after their "shomer shabbos" grandparents who they love and admire. I would love for my children to have some of the sterling middos and character traits of my grandparents!
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