Would you take clothes?

grin

Wed, Jul 23 2008, 1:38 am

ora_43 wrote:

There are communities in Israel that are terribly poor. That poverty is largely a result of lifestyle choices (rejecting secular education, for example). Of course we should still help those communities. But we shouldn't scare off Jews living abroad by giving the impression that ALL Israelis live in poverty. It's entirely possible to live a nice life here. DH and I are enjoying a much higher standard of living here than we would in the states, in fact, and we know many families who would say the same.

If someone tells you in a tzedaka appeal that most Israelis are poor, then you shouldn't believe them.

It is my understanding that the gap between rich and poor is quite wide here - and constantly growing! - and yes, statistically it seems to me that most Israelis are poor and disadvantaged, and more from the gov't favoring Arabs to Jews when it comes to help furthering their higher ed. than "choices".

Imaonwheels

Wed, Jul 23 2008, 8:00 am

Motek wrote:

Imaonwheels wrote:

Certainly better to live on the chaluka of a tzibbur ready and willing to support their brethren living a life of kedusha in a poor country with no infrastructure and oppressive non jews, and still do your best to serve HaShem than taking hard earned Jewish money to by things while throwing perfectly good clothing away.

If you really knew the history of the old yishuv you would know that, esp among the Sefardim, there were many craftsman, no work and constant danger in traveling.

Are you saying that the yishuv was self-supporting or not?
[/quote]

I am saying that they were living on chaluka because they were locked into the 4 "holy cities", oppressed by the non jews and there was no parnassa then.

Some where learners lishma but many tried to support themselves and could not. It would be wise to read both the Alter Rebbe's letter when released from prison and the astute observation from that letter from Rav Teichtal in his Em HaBanim Smecha, that his geula and that of all of those in the diaspora is b'zechus haaretz v'yoshveha. They were not getting something for nothing and only one who does not value EY would think they were. Had there been parnassa in EY then they would have supported their own learners.

Today we have extremely wealthy communities as well. Ceasaria, Hertzeliya Petuach, Kfar Shemariyahu and Savion. There are also religious neighborhoods for frum jews who are doing very well. We have our poor, frum and frei, who doesn't.

You might also want to read again about the gemach the Frierdike Rebbe had from the time he was a child from money he got for saying Mishnayos. He seemed to be more helping the working poor as opposed to the totally destitute.

Kinneret

Wed, Jul 23 2008, 2:43 pm

Motek wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

I'm a very giving person. Yet, if someone wants to give me nice clothing - why in the world not? I get tons of hand me downs for my daughter and it saves me alot of money. It has nothing in the world to do with being a giver or a taker.

Taking has nothing to do with being a taker? Oh.

Perhaps what you mean is, that we all give and take and we choose in which areas to give and in which to take.

I have to say I'm a little confused by some of the distinctions Motek seems to be making. For instance, if one takes clothes from one's family, one is not a "taker," but if one receives clothes from a donation box, one is a "taker." This makes no sense to me because the act of taking is the same, and the items taken are the same. There is the idea that tzdakah starts at home, but this is the first I've heard it's supposed to end there.

I've given away a lot of clothes over the years, and I would be thrilled to know someone can use something we cannot use anymore. The people who use the clothes cannot be declared "takers," and I don't think I can be declared a "giver" because I've given things away.

So yes, in the context in which ChossidMom is speaking, taking does not have anything to do with being a taker. Let's say I offer ChossidMom some childrens' clothes, and she accepts them. We have both done something for the other. I've helped her by giving her some free clothes; she has helped me by allowing me to free up space needed for other things, and by accepting my clothes, and she has allowed me to avoid being wasteful. Why should the money I spend on the clothes or the labor and materials that went into the making of the clothes be wasted just because kids grow out of things in a flash? What should we do with the clothes, if not give them away, and what is the point of giving them away if we're going to criticize those who take them? If she can use the clothes, what merit is there is turning them down?

Quote:

Like what do we mean when say in the bentching when we ask Hashem not to make us need people's gifts nor their loans, but to receive from Hashem's full, open, holy and expansive hand so we are never shamed nor embarrassed.

How can we ask this of Hashem while simultaneously saying:
sure! of course I would take from others! free? definitely! why not?

First, because who are we to say these gifts are not from Hashem's full, open, holy and expansive hand? Declaring your paycheck is a gift from Hashem but clothes in a donation box aren't seems pretty presumptuous.

Second, because "needing" others help to get by is a dangerous position in which to find ourselves, but if someone accepts free clothing (or furniture or books or any other gift) it doesn't follow they "need" them and cannot get by without them. They are able to use them, and the items may be helpful, which is not the same thing as relying on others to avoid paying one's own way.

I am particularly puzzled by the animus directed as those who say "Yay, free stuff." Why shouldn't someone be happy to accept a gift? In my experience, people who look down on those who shop at thrift stores or accept free clothing generally come from a position of privilege, and all too often, the privilege is not a result of that particular individual's merit. I find it ironic these folks are able to accept all the advantages of privilege without earning them, apparently feeling it their "due," while at the same time, insulting those who accept gifts of a different nature by suggesting they are grasping or lazy. I am not saying anyone on this board is doing this; it's just a general observation about negative attitudes towards those who accept tzedaka.

Clarissa

Wed, Jul 23 2008, 2:53 pm

Kinneret wrote:

If I'm understanding you correctly, I think there is definitely a difference. If one takes from a donation box that is intended for a certain population, then one is saying that one is as entitled as anyone else out there. Meaning, if I take these children's clothes, I'm saying that we need as much as somebody else who will come here to collect, even people who are in pretty dire need. I count myself as one of them, and feel justified. If I take from my friend K, I'm taking some nice stuff that a good friend is ready to pass on and share with friends, whether the need is great or not. I hope I'm answering correctly.

ora_43

Wed, Jul 23 2008, 6:13 pm

grin wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

The gap between rich and poor is wide, yes. That is unfortunate.

There may be some kind of affirmative action program for Arabs in Israeli universities, I don't know. And I don't think there is, btw, since acceptance is usually based strictly on test scores. Either way, Arabs are still much less likely than Jews to go to university, and much much more likely to be poor. So if you see statistics on poverty that include all Israelis, keep in mind that Israeli Jews are doing better than one might think. An example of this is the "X number of Israeli children under the poverty line." A very disproportionate number of those children are not Jewish (in the Bedouin community, for example, around 90% of kids live under the poverty line).

Most Israelis are poor? Not by any reasonable definition of poverty. If you compare Israel to the rest of the world, and not only to the states and western Europe, you'll see that the standard of living here is actually quite high. Statistically, the average Israeli employee makes over NIS 7,000 a month, and the average household has over NIS 12,000 coming in each month (according to the CBS).

As for "choices," I'm not trying to criticize those who make choices that leave them struggling financially. I expect that my husband and I will struggle financially as well. But in general it's true that in certain communities where kids don't take the bagrut tests, young men don't do the army and therefore aren't allowed to work, university studies are discouraged, and families are BH large, poverty rates are much higher than they are in secular areas where people go to university, marry older, and limit their family size. I'm not saying the latter communities are better, they're just richer.

Kinneret

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 1:31 pm

Clarissa wrote:

Kinneret wrote:

I understand and agree with the distinction you're making, but it's not exactly what I meant. I'm probably not explaining myself very well. So, what I mean is if you take from the donation box because, in your current circumstances, you're in dire need, it doesn't follow that you are a "taker." You may be very giving of your time, your food or you have. If you get something from you're friend for free, when you aren't in dire straights and could afford to purchase it for yourself, it doesn't mean you are not a taker (please excuse the double negative). You know there are other people who could use those clothes, but you feel entitled to them because it's your friend giving them away. In neither case is the taker of clothes clearly a "taker."

Motek

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 8:30 pm

Kinneret wrote:

The reason I make that distinction is because we have taken from our parents from the day we are born (and before). They gave us food and clothing and shelter, all our material needs. So yes, after a certain age it is technically tzedaka but I think most of us would agree that if our parent buys us a gift now, when we are adults, we would not regard it as a gift that comes from a tzedaka organization.

So too, but to a lesser degree with grandparents, siblings or close relatives or dear friends.

These close relatives are the people from whom a yerusha (inheritance) is received and - just my opinion - just as the yerusha is not charity, so too the gifts from these people are not charity.

Quote:

I've given away a lot of clothes over the years, and I would be thrilled to know someone can use something we cannot use anymore. The people who use the clothes cannot be declared "takers," and I don't think I can be declared a "giver" because I've given things away.

Why not? If you don't define giving as giving and taking as taking, then I don't understand your definitions.

Human beings are complex. We can be givers in certain situations and takers in other situations.

Quote:

So yes, in the context in which ChossidMom is speaking, taking does not have anything to do with being a taker. Let's say I offer ChossidMom some childrens' clothes, and she accepts them. We have both done something for the other. I've helped her by giving her some free clothes; she has helped me by allowing me to free up space needed for other things, and by accepting my clothes, and she has allowed me to avoid being wasteful. Why should the money I spend on the clothes or the labor and materials that went into the making of the clothes be wasted just because kids grow out of things in a flash? What should we do with the clothes, if not give them away, and what is the point of giving them away if we're going to criticize those who take them? If she can use the clothes, what merit is there is turning them down?

Nobody suggested wasting anything.
Nobody was criticized for taking anything.
Nobody said that anybody should turn anything down.

What was said is that being on the receiving end is not seen as something desirable in Torah. As the halacha says, better to עשה שבתך חול ואל תצטרך לבריות make your Shabbos like a weekday and not need other people's help, referring to taking charity (loans are not in this category).

Quote:

who are we to say these gifts are not from Hashem's full, open, holy and expansive hand? Declaring your paycheck is a gift from Hashem but clothes in a donation box aren't seems pretty presumptuous.

You are equating receiving tzedaka with earning a paycheck? The halacha certainly does not. We are saying in the bentching that we should NOT need people's gifts and loans, RATHER we want directly from Hashem so we are not embarrassed. Earning a living and receiving a salary is not a source of shame.

Quote:

I am particularly puzzled by the animus directed as those who say "Yay, free stuff." Why shouldn't someone be happy to accept a gift?

As mali put it:
"perhaps not enjoy the act of taking per se even when we are enjoying the item/benefit we're receiving."

Why? Because it says in Mishlei (15:27) sonei matanos yichyeh – "One who hates gifts will live".

If animus and "looking down on people" are the sentiments you detect, you should know that this was not the spirit in which my posts were written.

As for the privileged, oddly enough, wealthy people are often eager to get things for free.

Motek

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 8:40 pm

YESHASettler wrote:

I have three words... WEDDING GOWN GEMACH.

Maybe I should do a poll and see how many Imamothers went to a wedding gown gemach for their wedding gowns... I think there are also other gown gemachim for the rest of the bridal/Chattan family.

And there are the centerpiece tzedakah 'rentals'....

That's an interesting point you raise though I'm not quite sure what you have in mind. Of course you mean gemachs, as opposed to gown rentals which are not a chesed but a business. Though some gemachs charge a fee too.

Are you bringing up gemachs in connection with borrowing, that we say in birkas ha'mazon that we shouldn't need people's gifts or loans?

Since that paragraph is talking about parnasa and about not being shamed, it seems to me to be talking about money, not about borrowing tables and chairs from the neighborhood gemach for a simcha where there is no shame involved and it's simply a chesed and a convenience.

Even a wealthy person might not want to purchase a wheelchair when he breaks a leg but would rather borrow one from a medical gemach.

The word "gemach" is used for many sorts of things, some of them outright tzedaka and not actually a gemach-gemilus chesed.

Gsanmb

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 10:07 pm

I honestly am finding it difficult to believe that there should be such negativity associated with passing along clothing/toys/goods etc.

Before I lived in NY I lived in a fabulous OOT community where second hand/thrift/consignment shops were plentiful and everyone, but everyone, sold AND bought AND traded for "pre-used" Wink

things. I got my dd1's entire babyhood wardrobe and stroller, furniture, etc. second hand. Both from "free" handmedowns and thrift/consignment.

I never even once thought this would be perceived as negative in the Torah. Quite the opposite in fact, I thought (and still do!) it was avoiding wastefulness (bal taschchis?). The wantonness of consumerism in this society that raises newness to the level of a mitzva is disturbing.

I will not deny it -- I love to take stuff that comes my way. I freecycle all the time. I give stuff, and I take stuff. If I can get it used, I'll snap it up in a minute. We both work, we both "pay our way," we give ma'aser in money and goods, we pay tuition (not in Aretz HaKodesh...yet...). If I can trim some excess off our budget by being frugal, then you betcha, I will. Hashem gave us our parnassah, and He also gave us the sechel to figure out how to stretch it to the maximum to avoid debt and ridiculous and wasteful consumerism.

Maybe it's because I live in an area overwhelmed by gashmius. I have a strong reaction against it. We live simply (our house looks big, although it's not...but our furnishings are all used, handmedowns, or very inexpensive) so we can pay off our debts and pay our tuitions. Not to mention that we make the most of the natural resources Hashem gave us by not wasting what is already out there and still perfectly good.

Gsanmb

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 10:32 pm

Well the original question of the thread was "would you take clothes?" etc. The implication is that taking (or buying) clothing from someone other than a close family member is somehow less than desirable.

And the idea that somehow, taking used rather than buying new means that a person has not paid their own way or has not been a recipient of a bracha from Hashem leads to the idea that buying new is on a higher religious level. If this is not what you meant, please clarify.

And if buying new has a somehow elevated religious status because it means people don't "have to take" then what happens to the used, but still perfectly good, things that are no longer needed? Either they are wasted or they are passed along. But if there is a stigma to the taker of the passed along goods, and therefore they don't get used, then that is wasteful. Not only that, if there is a stigma in the first place and a person buys new when they could better get something used cheaply or for free, then they have wasted precious resources simply for fear of being a "taker."

sarahd

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 6:54 am

Motek wrote:

Kinneret wrote:

I can see why you would think so, but I don't agree with your distinction. If one is supposed to try not to be a taker, then when one reaches adulthood (or independence) one should stop taking from family too. Taking is taking - regardless of whether you've been taking all your life from these people or not, and regardless of the way you regard it.

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 8:27 pm

I don't have the patience to look for it now but I once learned a sicha that discusses how when people receive tzedoka they are in essence also perpetuating a mitzva because we need this concept of give and take in the world which reflects give and take between us and hashem and without someone on the receiving end how can we have someone giving?

Why communism failed while it sounded like a lovely idea to begin with is because it tried to create a situation in which no one would be able to give or receive tzedoka.

I'm really sorry, I'm posting a rough Sheba rough sketch of what I learned over a year ago and don't remember the finer details. If someone knows the such, remind me please where it is or fill in the missing details. It was a really nice one.

Motek

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 12:11 pm

Gsanmb - I'm sure you realize that if the vast majority of people chose to use only second-hand items, there would quickly be nothing available. The 2nd hand would turn into 3rd and 4th hand and be unusable. I agree with your goal of not wasting, but to say that buying new is wasteful? Whatever is bought new can then be made available second-hand whether for free - for the needy, or in a second-hand store.

And yes, it seems clear to me that if one is the recipient of other people's items, NOT that you bought them 2nd hand or traded them, that this is not what we daven for.

sarahd - perhaps it's a question for a wise person, a mashgiach or rabbi. It is a parent's pleasure to provide for their children and grandchildren and this is the normal way of the world. Some greatly prefer giving these gifts when alive, as opposed to leaving it in a will. I am not sure that in the desire to be mechanech (educate) children (or ourselves) to be "sonei matanos", grandparents and other relatives should be told not to give them (and us) any gifts.

Is there really no distinction between getting a Tomchei Shabbos box of food and getting food from parents?

Raisin

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 2:17 pm

Motek wrote:

Well, that doesn't happen in most western countries. most people who can afford it buy new, and replace it frequently. If you can afford it, most people prefer the choice of brand new stuff.

In our house we have a lot of second hand furniture. We didn't get the brand new stuff lots of newlyweds get, and once you have kids, its hard to find the money for things like that. If we can find something nice second hand, we get it. I recently needed new drawers for my kids bedrooms. First I looked for second hand ones. For some reason,though there were numerous 3 peice suites and dining room sets for sale, there were very few bedroom drawers. So we bought new.

I think there is much more of a problem of wastage nowadays. All the new furniture, toys, clothes, books people buy uses up resources to manufacture.

Quote:

Is there really no distinction between getting a Tomchei Shabbos box of food and getting food from parents?

well, if your parents have the money great. but if they are taking out second mortgages and gemachs and failing to save for retirement...well, in that case, getting from tomchei shabbos might be the better option.

Motek

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 8:29 pm

two other sources on the topic:

1) "The dove came back to him in the evening -- and behold, it had plucked an
olive leaf with its beak." (Noach 8:11)

By bringing back a bitter olive leaf in its mouth, it was as if the dove was
saying to Noach "Better that my food be bitter and from the Hand of the Holy
One, Blessed be He, than sweet as honey, and from the hand of man" (Rashi)

2) Gemara B.M.
Rav Kahana said: A person prefers a kav (a measure of volume, about 2.2 liters) of his own to nine kabim of his friend's [I.e., even the small remainder of one's own produce is preferred over what might be purchased from someone else with the proceeds of the sale, and this is even though he will be buying it, because what you produce on your own is far more satisfactory].

3) nahama d'chesufa - bread of shame, an unearned gift

One of the signs that a person is a Jew is the ability to feel shame (Yevamos 79a). One of the causes for shame is taking anything without earning it ("nahama dikisufa/bread of shame"). The Gemora (Yerushalmi, Orla 1:3) says, "One who eats from the food of another is ashamed to look at the benefactor's face." On this, Yismach Moshe (Parshas Toldos) says that a Jew does not want Olam Habo (eternal life) for free. If one did not work and gets pay, he is ashamed to look at his employer for receiving money. He knows that he does not deserve the money. If one earns money, he is not ashamed to look at his employer. He knows he earned it. In this manner, a person's essential work in this world is to earn the merit to have eternal life, with it NOT being "nahama dikisufa." A person with moral values is ashamed about receiving anything for free and, if he receives something for free, he is uncomfortable with the one from whom he received it, be this G-d or man.

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