Why is it that so many FFB's can't see the faults?

montrealmommy

Sat, Sep 20 2008, 10:34 pm

Based solely on my personal experiences (and those I ave heard 1st hand from close firneds) that so many FFB's cannot see fault in the system? I decided to post here inthe hopes of getting a more well-rounded response.

Let me clarify - I have had numerous discussions over the years with FFB's about issues I have seen within the community. By in large, most of them are so incredibally close-minded and stuck on a high horse that they can't see beyond the tip of their noses! I find it so frustrating. It happened againthis Shabos and I don't know why but some of the things that were said still ahve me riled up beyond belief. For example they (the people I was speaking with) found nothing wrong with a child being told that those who drive on Shabos are non jews I was shellshocked to hear this! Not only do I find it inaccurate and highly offensive but they are propgating the same ignorance to their children. When they asked what I tell my children, I said we tell them that some people didn't get to go to school and learn about Torah and the mitzvos that Hashem gave us, and some people who drive are not jewish. their response was "well, we guess that people who have non-frum famliy have to say that" - again, shock

no - I explained that it is the truth and that is wy I say it. Jews who drive on Shabbos are still jews and to call them non jews is plain and simple wrong - they felt I was being unjustly defensive (according to my dh). We breifly discussed kashrus and more shocking things came up. Then when the idea of a double standard arised, one of them flatly denied that it could possible be true - then when I gave a personal example, they scoffed it off as being an isolated case of someone who can't see beyond the 4 walls they were raised in (I so wanted to raise a mirror to that person).

Inadvertantly (and I will say that to be dan le kaf zechus that it wasn't deliberate) they maanged to put down or "lessen the level of frumness" of everyone in our community who was not raised frum like them! It appaled me. They even said it's impossible for our sommunity to have 40% baalei teshuva or geirim with out including people who don;t live in this area but send their kids to school here. I was seriously Confused

This was a number, albeit rough, given by one of the leaders of the community when I had discussed this with him. I told these people that in my son's nursery class 80% of the kids do not have 2 FFB parents, they said I must have the numbers wrong.

So please, tell me, do I just meet the wrong FFB's who share these very narrow-minded views? and why is it that when I try to talk to many FFB's they defend the frum community without any tangeable reasoning, but just with a kind of "well-I-was-raised-that-way-and-turned-out-ok-what's-wrong-with-it" attitude?

Ok, vent/rant over, but I really am interested in hearing other people's POV's on this.

Thank you

anon

Sat, Sep 20 2008, 10:51 pm

montrealmommy wrote:

I would just like to add, that I have had may enlightening discussions with FFB's (both peers and Rebbeim and Rebbetzins) and know that not everyone is like what I am describing above, it's just a particular brand of FFB's that also happen to have a real knack at getting under my skin -

Well there's part of your answer. FFB's vary greatly and plenty don't think like that. You only gave one example of close-mindedness, so I can only respond to that. But I never heard of giving such a silly explanation to children about why ppl drive on shabbas. And I'm FFB with plenty of yesivish friends (middle to left wing yeshivish).

Perhaps you're in the wrong community if you're surrounded by people who think and talk like that. Some communities are more "BT friendly" than others.

montrealmommy

Sat, Sep 20 2008, 11:01 pm

Quote:

Perhaps you're in the wrong community if you're surrounded by people who think and talk like that. Some communities are more "BT friendly" than others.

I have asked myslef that numerous times, but of the 3 jewish communities I have lived in and the over 8 that dh and I looked into before ending up back here, this one does suit many of the other things we desire from a community.

Also, my circle of friends does not have these precepts, so it's not as if I am constantly doing damage control with my kids from what they may have heard/seen.

What disturbs me is that I find that many many people do on some level feel that because they were raised frum that certain "chisronos" (for lack of a better word) don't exist. For better or worse, these people do make up a fair percentage of every community I have lived in and as such do have a relative degree of influence over the community.

Quote:

but don't let it change you

I don't think I have yet, but I do not want the same attitude to be transmitted to my children. I am very proud of how I was raised and of the choices I have made. I do not conform to other people's comfort levels (ok, maybe one of my chisronos), but do'nt want my kids 'penalised' becuase of that either.

anon

Sat, Sep 20 2008, 11:23 pm

montrealmommy wrote:

What disturbs me is that I find that many many people do on some level feel that because they were raised frum that certain "chisronos" (for lack of a better word) don't exist. For better or worse, these people do make up a fair percentage of every community I have lived in and as such do have a relative degree of influence over the community.

Honestly, what you're encountering is human nature, and it's not specific to frum communities. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" (By Dale Carnegie) stresses how it never pays to give criticism because people usually don't know how to take it. Questioning someone's ideals and beliefs would probably go in the same category and evoke the "defensive mode" response. So it's no surprise that they're being defensive.

Also, if people were raised with certain beliefs all their lives, then they may truly and honestly believe that it's correct. With the example given above... A person who was taught that people who drive on shabbas are "non jews" may really believe that that is the best answer to give to a child and they see nothing wrong with it. They may realize as adults that the people driving aren't non jews, but they still think, for whatever reason, that it's the best explanation to give.

OldYoung

Sat, Sep 20 2008, 11:36 pm

Whatever the case is, there is no excuse for FFB's to be "so incredibally close-minded and stuck on a high horse that they can't see beyond the tip of their noses"

If you want solid feedback, I think people would have to understand the context of the conversations you were having.

If my child would ask me why she sees people driving on Shabbos, I would also answer that the people on the street are not Jewish and there is nothing wrong with them driving on Shabbos. I don't know why I would even bring up why there are non-frum people that drive on Shabbos, unless she says, "but so and so is Jewish and he drives on Shabbos..." Then I'd explain.

I'm not sure what a double standard is.

montrealmommy

Sat, Sep 20 2008, 11:43 pm

Quote:

If you want solid feedback, I think people would have to understand the context of the conversations you were having.

don't quite know what you are looking for here, it was a 3 hour conversation at a Shabbos table - I cited a few examples, if you need more, I can cite more.

Quote:

If my child would ask me why she sees people driving on Shabbos, I would also answer that the people on the street are not Jewish and there is nothing wrong with them driving on Shabbos. I don't know why I would even bring up why there are non-frum people that drive on Shabbos, unless she says, "but so and so is Jewish and he drives on Shabbos..." Then I'd explain.

I answered why I think that's wrong in my earlier post. In those few seconds when a child has to name someone to prove the aforementioned reason is inaacurate, they have made a judgement about the person they mentioned (something to the effect of "so and so is doing something wrong or so and so must not really be jewish then) - it's completely inappropriate IMO.

Quote:

I'm not sure what a double standard is

It's when a policy or attitude is changed/varied for people of the same "sort". For example, 2 frum women walk into a frum fabric store, Miraim is wearing a sheitle and looks like your typical yeshivish mother. Esther is wearing a tichel and blouse and skirt outfit - Miriam gets waited on hand and foot while Esther gets the brush off and curt service becuase to those serving her she obviously cannot be "fully frum" - that is a double standard (and a true story with the names changed)

OldYoung

Sat, Sep 20 2008, 11:57 pm

montrealmommy wrote:

Quote:

If you want solid feedback, I think people would have to understand the context of the conversations you were having.

don't quite know what you are looking for here, it was a 3 hour conversation at a Shabbos table - I cited a few examples, if you need more, I can cite more.

Quote:

I'm not sure what a double standard is

My only guess about the what to answer a child who asks about people driving, is that parents would give an appropriate answer based on what their children have been exposed to. If their children are unaware that there are Jewish people who drive on Shabbos, then I don't think it's totally inappropriate for a parent not to mention it at all. If a child will automatically ask, then yes, I think that issue needs to be addressed initially.

I am still confused about the double standard. I didn't really understand the example. Two obviously frum women walk into a store. One gets special treatment over the other. Why? Because she was wearing a shaitel? Someone really gave better service to a woman because she was wearing a shaitel and not her snood that day?

HooRYou

Sun, Sep 21 2008, 1:47 am

I can only address your one example, so here goes. Depending on how the answer is given I think it might be the right one.

We live in a religious area in Israel. No one, except for the security cars drive here on Shabbos, the boys all wear kippahs, etc. When we are visiting family in the US I do explain when asked that since the great majority of people in the US are non-Jews then the people we see driving are probably not Jewish. That is the logical truth and I don't feel bad about it. When DC sees a non-Frum relative or we go to a mixed area and DC ask about boys not wearing kippah or cars on Shabbos I explain how sad it is that they were never properly taught to do mitzvos and that we have to daven for them.

It is basically the same answer in the US as the people you are complaining about but more complete and based on logic. People do exhibit biases and other things (sheitel over snood, in-town over out of town, known over unknown etc) but that is human nature terrible true, but human nature nonetheless. I guess just make sure that you have better middos and better answers for your children than the ones you are complaining about.

shalhevet

Sun, Sep 21 2008, 2:45 am

I have also experienced this attitude. I would say that those people who do not work on themselves, look to grow etc, like to think they are better than others because of things outside their control (they are FFB, Ashkenazi, the granddaughter of the rosh yeshiva of X etc etc). This is not limited to FFBs - I have met many people in EY who are not outwardly frum and will tell you how they are just as good as you because their grandfather was a rabbi in Y.

It is called gaiva (pride), and is the worst sort, because it stunts a person's growth because they think they are already "there" because of their background.

People who are interested in growing, whether FFB or BT or anything else, are interested in hearing other people's opinions and weighing them up. They think people can be spiritually great or failures no matter what their background or outer dress (provided it conforms with halacha).

raizy

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 12:20 am

montreal wich area do u live in . I agree with u. pple here can be sooooo narrowminded... anyone a bit different is a [gentile] mamamsh... it happens in all the comunities from uptown downtown or lub area. I can see what u say in all coumunties. and some lub are so close minded that they claim in their own ways that everything is good there is no bad going on in their world. etc... I can rant and rave about this all day and night it wont help. some pple are very close minded and it wont change anything...

try to be friends with open minded pple.