why some people donâ€™t hold from Kiruv

ora_43

Sun, Sep 28 2008, 8:35 am

DefyGravity, great response.

ShakleeMom, beyond what people have already said (not everyone is cut out for kiruv, most "ultras" are happy to host non-religious guests, etc), keep in mind that there's a big difference between the relationships you're talking about. Having a close friend who is not frum is very different from having a guest/"kiruvee" who isn't frum is very different from having a grown child living in your home who isn't frum. A family that does not want an irreligious 19-year-old son to remain at home, for example, might still be happy to host a non-religious guest, because the son's influence over his siblings is far greater, and his behavior is more hurtful to the parents. Someone who works in kiruv and spends most of her time reaching out to non-religious women might still make sure that her circle of close friends consists of frum women who can give her chizuk. Etc.

I'm not trying to get into right and wrong here--each situation is different and has to be judged for itself--just to point out that someone who warns against having a non-religious friend wouldn't necessarily be against kiruv, someone who cuts off contact with an irreligious sister might not be against having a friend who isn't frum, etc. This isn't all one issue the way you're making it out to be.

Also, I have yet to meet a hareidi or chassidic family that disowned someone for becoming secular. I'm sure there's an inevitable cooling of the relationship when one party adopts a lifestyle radically opposed to the other's beliefs, but that's not "disowning." There must be families out there who do disown those who become secular, since the stereotype probably started somewhere, but I don't think it's nearly as common as one could be led to believe.

HindaRochel

Sun, Sep 28 2008, 8:54 am

ShakleeMom wrote:

This is a spin-off on the thread about my friend who lost her frumkeit. I just spoke to someone and she is very chassidish. I was telling her about this friend etc. and I told her, “you know I keep up with her yadayada, I think it’s the right thing to do etc.” and this is what she said:

“As long as it doesn’t bring you down in the interim…”

So I get it now. The whole disconnection that families do when someone is weakened at the roots, the disowning, it’s all because THEY are in secure. THEY are afraid that they will be dragged along. They are not strong enough in their frumkeit either and are afraid to be shaken.

Bringing a hippie to the Shabbos table can do that to them?!

I am angry, horrified, shaken.

I think you have jumped to a conclusion; that someone who warns you about the potential danger of a particular act, is therefore condemning the act. Perhaps the way she said it (it sounded rather flippant to me, but I of course didn't hear her) or the lack of additional information ("As long as it doesn't bring you down in hte interim...you should talk to other people who do kiruv and advice from them.) would have been more helpful.

But what she said is correct; anyone who works in kiruv needs to be careful that their connections with the less frum person doesn't affect them spiritually. Think of it like training a lifeguard; one of the first things one learns, from my understanding, is you need to protect your ownself first, and you can't let a drowning person take you down with them.

That was the intent of the advice I think; not don't do it, or your on the road to gehenim but, take care and make certain to protect ourself spirtitually.

ChossidMom

Sun, Sep 28 2008, 9:42 am

So, is this the thread to talk about Kiruv done by "Charedim"?

Should I tell you about how my husband used to give shiurim in prisons?

Should I tell you about how we give our car every morning at netz to some Kollel men who go to neighboring non-religious neighborhoods to help the people have a complete minyan?

Should I describe the simchas bes hashoeva we had in our succah last year for the young men of these secular neighborhoods? (I played my saxaphone btw).

Should I tell you about all the Aish guys that come to my house for Shabbos?

Should I describe the number of Aish guys and Neve girls who spent Shabbosim at my parents' house over the years and have become frum and started their own families since then?

Can I mention the Charedi women of Kiryat Sefer who go (or used to go) on Friday mornings to bustling markets outside of K.S. in order to give out Shabbos candles?

Is this the place to talk about how I brought people from my secular workplace to my house to hear a lecture about the religious view of "love"?

How about the Kollel men of Kiryat Sefer who go to Lod and Ramla once a week to reach out to non religious families? And what about the women who do the same?

I guess if it's all done quietly without any fanfare, maybe it doesn't count?

amother

Sun, Sep 28 2008, 11:49 am

ChossidMom wrote:

Same amother who works for Partners in Torah. Yes, Shakleemom, I was quite offended after having worked endless hours night and day these past few weeks on a number of kiruv programs for the Yamim Noraim. Not to mention all of my hardworking coworkers, there were loads of others involved too. Reading your post was a slap in the face. Ultras don't get involved? Check again. I think there are more people willing to get involved in kiruv than you think.

ShakleeMom

Sun, Sep 28 2008, 5:03 pm

Over Shabbos I did bring up the subject to many people I bumped into. None of them had any irreligious Shabbos guest, none of them had guest to begin with actually. And then only one had a nice story about a classmate who is frum today because when she would run off with the gang to the malls with short sleeves, her mother still made her a warm supper to come home to. Other than that, I still feel so alone here.

shnitzel

Mon, Sep 29 2008, 12:04 pm

Most people aren't going to invite random people to a shabbos meal. If you live in a frum community all your friends are frum and inviting coworkers can be akward. Most people feel uncomfortable. Project inspired is supposed to help with that. I was in college with non-frum girls and while I was friendly with them I never felt comfortable inviting for shabbos - and that's a lot more exposure than most other people. Its not out of lack of willingness its just discomfort and not knowing how. I happened to have married someone who works in kiruv so b"H now kiruv is my life and I love it.

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Sep 29 2008, 12:15 pm

ShakleeMom wrote:

So you're talking about the ultra chassidish community in BP and Will, where its true that people are not so into kiruv, but so what?? So they're into other types of mitzvos and chassadim, like bikur cholim, gemachim etc. When was the last time you got onto a satmar bikur cholim bus and spent the day in a manhattan hospital? People are involved in whatever they feel is more comfortable and practical for them.
And just a few reasons:
As others have said not everyone feels capable of doing such work, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're insecure in their yiddishkeit, just that they dont have the tools or personality to debate, convince or discuss such issues.
Also many people specially keep shabbos as strictly family time and by the seudos give their full attention to the kids.
Also many people feel that its not so appropriate for their children to sit by the table listening to philosophical debates. It can be potentionally unhealthy for many children.

Its wonderful that you are into it and feel its important, but why does it bother you that others dont? Confused

justmom

Wed, Oct 01 2008, 3:09 pm

Just to add our own experience-- we invited the daughter of friends who was spending the year in a seminary for "more modern" girls--now keep in mind that we are DL-- not the least bit chareidi-- this girl and her friend showed up in cleavage baring, cap sleeved shirts and had rubbed glitter makeup on their chests and faces-- nice girls-- hope Shabbos was nice for them, but if this is "kiruv" I have a pubescent son and a husband that I don't need seeing this-- sorry, but family has to come before kiruv, and you need to know what is good for your family

ChossidMom

Wed, Oct 01 2008, 5:04 pm

justmom wrote:

Which is why, btw, many people don't feel comfortable having girls for Shabbos. I usually have guys, so there is no cleavage problem!

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 02 2008, 9:20 am

justmom wrote:

It's your house, and they knew you were frum. You are entitled to ask them to cover up and give them a shawl or jacket to put on. Maybe not for the short sleeves or just some decolletage, but the cleavage definitely.

My very very very very not charedi father told several of my friends (non Jewish or non frum or MO) to do it (cleavage reasons, as he didn't care about sleeveless or regular open top). He did it rather nicely, like "I'm an old fashioned person, I don't like people to dress this way in my house". It worked. Often after he told me not to bring the girls home again because they were vulgar.

ChossidMom

Thu, Oct 02 2008, 11:58 am

Ruchel wrote:

justmom wrote:

Oh, he must be an "ultra-orthodox" fanatic! Rolling Eyes