Savings | Imamother

amother

Mon, Dec 07 2009, 3:34 am

I'm not really sure how to word this. My question is really, when can you relax with our savings? When you reach a certain amount? Never?

I had replied to one of the other recent financial threads about this, but I think it needs it's own topic. I already work 2 jobs, and I recently told one of my jobs that I will start working Sundays and Fridays and mornings as well to earn overtime so that we can put money into savings every month. My husband wants me to quit one because it's too much (which it is). He says we already have X amount in savings and that that's enough for now. I disagree. I don't think 20,000 shekel can get you much of anywhere. $100,000, maybe, but 20,000 shekel? That can be gone in a week! As I wrote on the other thread, there will come a time I"yH, where we will be making 3 bar mitzvahs in a row. Add a couple of sets of braces to that, and a few broken appliances and voila...money gone. Our building has also just gotten an Ishur to build porches after 10 years of fighting for it...where is that money coming from?
Furthermore, I feel like I need to prepare NOW for the future. There will come a time when my children need suits and hats, not cute shirts I find at sale at Children's Place for $3. There will come a time when I'll be feeding a house full of teenagers and a bag of 3 shekel spaghetti wont cut it. If I don't work extra NOW...what will be for the future? (Again, my husband totally disagrees on this.)

So, what's your attitude to this? Do you work extra to save? Do you work less but obsessively scrimp to save? Do you just not save at all and are happy to live paycheck to paycheck? How do you plan for the future? Or are you relaxed because you've already reached X amount of money and feel that you can now relax with that sum to fall back on?

Marion

Mon, Dec 07 2009, 5:13 am

You have to find the balance for yourself.

Right now we don't have any real savings, but we do have enough put away so that we can survive the first month of maternity leave until my salary comes in. I don't get paid overtime, and my husband is also on a global salary, so working extra hours is not an option for either of us. (And let me tell you, it's better that way...his global salary more than compensates for any extra he's asked to work...it's a LOT higher than what he was bringing home when he was hourly.)

I don't know how far away your bar mitzvahs are...but if you're already putting away for example 200NIS/month, you can keep doing that. I hope you're putting it into some form of interest-bearing account. I put away part of the kitzbat yeladim every month for each child. OK, it's not much now, but I hope by the time they get out of the army it will have added up!

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Dec 07 2009, 5:22 am

I was going to second what marion said. if you putting away some amount every month, just keep doing that. we try every month to put away a certain amout of money from my husband's salary (right now im not working but when I was, we put my whole pay check into savings - it was not all that much)

because over time, if you put it into an intrest baring account, it will grow. I know because our "savings" accout (we have an account just for the money that we put aside) has grown over the last four years.

I dont know if working yourself to the bone is the answer either.

freidasima

Mon, Dec 07 2009, 5:29 am

Marion is right about keeping the kitzbat yiladim for the kids. I wish we had done that, but at the time we didn't think we could afford it and it was a big mistake.

There are lots of people who don't save and don't think of the future. Could be that they think they will get a pension and it will be enough (it won't) and could be that they think that they will get yerusha and will live decently (they usually won't) and some don't think in terms of helping their kids etc. Others live on a very low standard and don't earn much and cant afford to either.

So. What can you do? Work hard and save. We did it for years and it was what made it possible for us to marry off two kids and help them and to give help to our other three for things so that they could save their salaries (two of the three work, one full time, one part time and the baby is still a chayal but we cover his expenses too) for their future. That's a nice sum to sock away for them even if they earn minimum (NIS 3,000 a month).

but we only did it by moonlighting, first when they were young it was just to pay bills. Later, when they were teenagers and our salaries went up we continued doing it to have something for our future as our pensions are only a small portion of our take home pay unfortunately, it's only for the "sachar basis" basic salary, without all the additions one gets.

Everything depends on how much you need a month to live. The rule of the thumb is that you should have a year's worth of expenses in the bank. If you need NIS 7,000 a month then you need around NIS 85,000 or a bit more in the bank to feel "safe" in case someone loses a job or is incapacitated. That is of course not counting things like bar mitzvahs and other big expenses. As for a pension, someone said to me the other day at work that with pension funds collapsing (for us with dh close to 60 it's a real question) one should have - brace yourself - almost a million shekel in the bank of which you can live off the interest, or as my very astute son in law said on shabbat, two apartments being rented out where you can have a monthly income of let's say NIS 7,000 from the rents combined and can live off that. That's not impossible if you think about buying a small apartment in Beer Sheva let's say for $70,000 and renting it out first to cover the mortgage and later just to live off the income...you need around NIS $15,000 to put down, that's NIS 50,000, and the rest is covered by the bank which is paid by the renters and eventually after fifteen years you own the apartment and can rent it out and bank the rent.

Food for thought.

So everything depends on where you are coming from.

Health is a Virture

Mon, Dec 07 2009, 5:29 am

I would ask a shayla. Many rabbanim can give you a clear cut answer. Like, for example, I know one sibling of mine was told to know what the next year will be. have planned for next year, and deal with the future later.

money is really from Hashem and I would recommend that you do your hishtadlus by putting some money away every month. you never know what the exchange rate will be come the time you make your bar mitzvas...maybe your money is in foreign currency and at that time the exchange rate will be good/bad, etc, buying apartments for children, who knows? hashem can send you a metziah or not?? you do your hishtadlus, but you have to leave room for bracha and btachon.

you never know what life may bring. What if chas v'shalom the money needs to go for other things before the bar mitzvah, car breaks down, etc, use your imagination, etc etc.

Living is not just about making money and having "enough," it's about living. A bar mitzvah also doesn't have to cost that much! maybe someone will decide to give your son 10 thousand dollars when he comes bar mitzvah, etc.

I know everybody recommended to place your money in an interest bearing account. I would recommend that you place at least some in a money lending g'mach, al pi teva, it doesn't seem financially savvy, but personal experience I can say it is truly a blessing for parnassah and bracha.

amother

Tue, Dec 08 2009, 3:19 am

Thank you all, you all bring excellent points.

Freidasima, I feel like you understand my point. To me, this is just being responsible. Yes, it stinks, but that's what you got to do now, to plan for the future. My husband insists Bar Mitzvahs are far into the future but when do we start planning then? When the kid is 12?! And if we save later on, or a veeery little bit each month, then when the bar mitzvahs are over there will be nothing left for every day expenses.

Esteec, that was exactly my husband's point. We got into an argument about it this morning, again. I said I was just earning a living and he said this isn't called living, and that I'm a workaholic. I hear his point, but again, one of us has to be thinking for the future. everything from next week up until after retirement. Better I should work to the bone now, when I'm younger, then having to go out and get a job at 65!!

Marion, that is what we do. We save a bit every month. He is content with saving 400 shekel a month. I am trying to get that number to $1000. I know 400 adds up over the years...but to what? With all the expenses involved in everyday living, raising a family, simchas, purchases....how far, really, will 400 shekel a month get you?? And it is in a savings account but the interest is miniscule. If any.

Thank you all for your replies! I'm just really confused right now. I feel like I need to find a balance because no human can go on like this. But I am trapped in this feeling of responsibility. That this is what has to be done now.

Health is a Virture

Tue, Dec 08 2009, 3:31 am

I know I said this before and if you don't want to listen to my advice then that's fine, but that is what rabbanim are there for...to help us sort out exactly what is proper hishtadlus and what is not proper hishtadlus, and b'dafka to help us figure out how we should lead our lives when we feel confused. daas torah is not going to say to not work. many say in fact to buy life insurance, put away savings, etc but they have daas torah and can be an excellent third party (instead of imamother) to help figure out what the proper thing to do. am I wrong? bec. I feel like you completely ignored what I wrote...and personally, I thought I had written some good stuff LOL

amother

Tue, Dec 08 2009, 3:35 am

Health is a Virture wrote:

I'm sorry Health...I thought what you wrote was good stuff too. It's an excellent solution because I know that whatever the Rav would say my husband would accept.

The problem though, is that if the Rav tells me to cut back on work, I just don't think I could. For me it's not a matter of 'You have to throw out your Fleishig pot because you poured milk in it', it's a major issue. It's my future and my life. I just don't think I could accept a Rav telling me to cut down unless he's offering me financial aid for life.

Health is a Virture

Tue, Dec 08 2009, 3:49 am

I'm just trying to explain that what you think you are saving every month (even 1000 dollars a month!) may end up in grand total less than you saving 400 shekels a month. You can do your hishtadlus but in the end, there is a certain amount of money preordained to you on rosh hashanah. I just want to illustrate with a few true stories (that are more common than you may think)

A couple had tons and tons of stocks. They were thinking of breaking it when they reached 100, but it was financially more savvy for them to wait until they reached retirement age, even if the stock dropped down to 70 (the rate that it was for many years). they waited. stock dropped to a dollar a piece. Savings???? they have some, but nothing like they thought they would have!!!

scenario two: father makes a very good living, mother is extremely well educated and could technically also make a very nice living. money would never be their problem!!!

mother got emotionally ill. thousands of dollars are now being spent on social work (copays, which can amount to a lot!), and extras due to this (need to take children out to eat), have to buy a lot of prepared foods bec. mother is unfit to care for them, etc. some of the children also need special schooling, which is 30 thousand dollars a year, might be 40 thousand now per kid, whatever, a lot. Bottom line: would I rather be making a whole lot less and have a lot less of those expenses?

Scenario three: I could go on and on with more stories...they are true stories, not made up.

many rabbanim definitely say to have some cushioning, to have some savings. there are lots of stories where there are no savings and children have to get married, etc, etc. but, you also have to make sure that you are healthy too.

if you can manage working that amount and you feel that you nor your children are suffering, then by all means go for it, but to think that if you are putting a thousand dollars away a month that you have financial aid for life is a fallacy. I know you realize this, but living in eretz yisrael and living life, I have seen how much is not in our hands in terms of finances.

w/ that said, I would recommend that you read chovos halevovos, shaar btachon, with R' Isbee's tapes if you can get hold of them (supposed to be very good), it really helps put these kinds of things in perspective.

btw, that's my plan, to raise my children now and then when I and they are older to get a job and work and help support them then.

amother

Tue, Dec 08 2009, 5:41 am

Thank you health. I hear your point, and I understand what you are saying completely. I've been there, done that. When we first moved here, I was hospitalized with no insurance. The day of my release, my husband found 1,000 shekel in a cab. (We called our Rav and did everything we had to do but it was unclaimed and we were then allowed to keep it.) I've also been in the position where we received a monetary gift or an unexpected amount of money, only to have appliances need sudden repair. So I hear your point.

What I don't understand, is our role in hishtadlus. I know that what Hashem said I would get on Rosh Hashana is what I'm getting, BUT, maybe Hashem said that amount because I'd be working extra this year. I don't understand who's to say that our hishtadlus doesn't include taking on extra hours. I think that's an assumption.

Health is a Virture

Tue, Dec 08 2009, 5:46 am

I didn't say not to take on extra hours; I just said to ask a rav as you felt that you were having difficulty in clarifying where to draw the line (hope this is not coming out attacking; I in no way want it to be that way....just trying to help...play devil's advocate, etc, to help you clarify your thoughts.)---for everybody the line is a different place; hence, why we can't answer the question for you, but a rav can help give you guidance, knowing where you are coming from, your particular situation, etc.

I also recommended reading shaar b'tachon bec. I know, at least for myself, that this also has helped me clarify the boundaries of hishtadlus/btachon in numerous areas.

Health is a Virture

Tue, Dec 08 2009, 5:52 am

for me, the way I look at it, again, this is a personal thing, if me or my family is not able to function well doing the amount of hishtadlus that we are doing, then I assume that hashem does not expect us to do so much hishtadlus. I assume hashem can only expect me to do what is humanly and physically possible for me and my children. to illustrate, I really think for chinuch reasons that I need to pick my son up from cheder. it is a difficult thing, not close, he can walk home himself, have to take all the kids, etc; however, when there are times that physically I cannot go, then I have to just have a little more b'tachon bec. sometimes there is a limit to my kochos. If he was only 4 years old, then even if physically I couldn't do it, I would have to make other calculations, hassah, cab, call a friend, etc. hope this made some sense. so, basically I just figure if something is well out of my means, like I cannot physically work like you do and be a good mother (that's me), so for me, that would be too much hishtadlus for me. for you, it may not be. That's what a rav is for LOL

...to have foresight when we feel we don't.