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Why are we so offended?
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rb




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 10:26 am
Just curious, why are we so offended by xmas? We cringe if our kids mention Santa, we quickly shush them if they start humming a holiday tune they heard on the street or radio. If we would know that the non jews would do the same regarding our holidays, we would be very insulted. How do you explain it?
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kitov




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 10:30 am
Timah?

We obviously don't cringe about Thanksgiving and New years, and niitel nacht applies only to xmas. So maybe that warrants enough to keep all influences of this holiday out of jewish homes and jewish mouths.
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rb




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 10:35 am
So why not just laugh it off and explain that its a goyisha holiday? I'm not sure I understand all this "Tumah" talk. I understand its Avodah Zarah, but we are not celebrating the holiday so I don't see why we get so offended.
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kitov




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 10:36 am
Ask your LOR then...maybe he/she is better at explainig then ani hakuttan is....
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 10:47 am
It's not just a taste like chicken or meat, it's because Jews have died and been tortured b/c of their savior.
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sunshine!




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 10:48 am
I don't quickly shush my kids. Kids are curious about everything around them and we talk about what they see that is holiday oriented in straight talk. We just tell them that they don't believe in the same Hashem that we do and that they are celebrating a holiday that has nothingto do with us. My 6 year old woke up this morning and said "Ma, I forgot to tell you there is no bussing because it is a non jewish holiday". My daughter who is 4 remarks about the lights on the houses, by saying "Ma, now we for sure know which is a Yiddish house and which is not". We are very open with our children and they don't feel guilty for asking.
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rb




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 10:49 am
kitov wrote:
Ask your LOR then...maybe he/she is better at explainig then ani hakuttan is....


Thats why I posted in "Intellectual stuff" Very Happy
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 11:16 am
people are worried about assimilation so they feel a need to transmit a sense of disgust to their kids.

I'm not offended.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 11:59 am
I'm not only not offended, but it's so amazing to live in this malchus shel chesed, where people wish you happy whatever sincerely with a good heart. Maybe that's where the fear of assimilation comes in, but there's enough else going on in the dominant culture that makes it lacking.
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Hodu Lashem




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 1:17 pm
rb wrote:
Just curious, why are we so offended by xmas? We cringe if our kids mention Santa, we quickly shush them if they start humming a holiday tune they heard on the street or radio. If we would know that the non jews would do the same regarding our holidays, we would be very insulted. How do you explain it?


I don't know if you should call it offended, but maybe defensive. There have been a lot of atrocities perpetrated on the Jewish pple under the symbol of the church - the Inquisition, the Crusades, pogroms, just to mention a few. Plus missionizing.

All of it adds up to being uncomfortable with symbols like the cross and I guess, by extension, anything associated with it.

BTW, I just tell my young kids "It's a non jewish holiday", and as they get older if they ask about it, I go more into detail.
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solo




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 2:34 pm
[quote="Hodu LashemI don't know if you should call it offended, but maybe defensive. There have been a lot of atrocities perpetrated on the Jewish pple under the symbol of the church - the Inquisition, the Crusades, pogroms, just to mention a few. [/quote]

precisely.
im not offended by santa or spruce trees, im offended by all the suffering our nation has indured in the name of christ.
personally I luv holiday season. fake snow, sparkly lights...
but because of what its celebrating I stick with happy holidays and dont acknowledge this hparticular holiday.
also btw nitel nacht is not dec 25. I think its some time in feb.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 25 2009, 3:42 pm
Solo, check the nitel thread for a discussion of the dates. Tis the season, not the specific date.
It's true that this holiday does evoke a lot of bad times in our history, but so do many other things. For some reason all this comes out more in December than Easter, which was really bad news throughout history, I think because of the glamour and glitz that we have no part of. Which is not a bad thing at all.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 26 2009, 12:27 pm
Tuma + annoying to see Jews celebrating it
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 26 2009, 2:30 pm
rb wrote:
Just curious, why are we so offended by xmas? We cringe if our kids mention Santa, we quickly shush them if they start humming a holiday tune they heard on the street or radio. If we would know that the non jews would do the same regarding our holidays, we would be very insulted. How do you explain it?

I don't think everyone is that offended by xmas. Most people I know would just calmly explain that it's not our holiday, no cringing necessary.

But I can see why people find xmas particularly annoying. It's so pervasive. Every store has x-mas sales and banners and xmas jingles playing in the background, advertising featuring xmas themes starts about 2 months in advance, towns have massive xmas trees... It's everywhere you look. I can think of several nominal xtians I know in the states who dislike the season for that very reason.

I don't think it's comparable to Jewish holidays, because if a christian family were so disturbed by Jewish symbols it wouldn't be a defensive reaction to having Pesach/Purim/Sukkot in their face everywhere they go.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Dec 26 2009, 6:27 pm
I don't know if I would call myself offended but there are some things that annoy me at this time of year

a) Why do they wish everyone including us a merry x-mas? why do they assume we are all xtians celebrating the same festival.

b)there is a misconception out there that Chanuka was invented to compensate for us not celebrating x-mas.
Yes we give Chanuka gelt but the idea behind that is to encourage kids to give tzedoka from their gelt.
Where did this concept of chanuka PRESENTS however come from? Is it merely an evolution of chanuka gelt or did it come from x-mas?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 26 2009, 7:17 pm
amother wrote:
I don't know if I would call myself offended but there are some things that annoy me at this time of year

a) Why do they wish everyone including us a merry x-mas? why do they assume we are all xtians celebrating the same festival.

b)there is a misconception out there that Chanuka was invented to compensate for us not celebrating x-mas.
Yes we give Chanuka gelt but the idea behind that is to encourage kids to give tzedoka from their gelt.
Where did this concept of chanuka PRESENTS however come from? Is it merely an evolution of chanuka gelt or did it come from x-mas?


I hear where you're coming from but I listen to enough talk radio to know that there is a big backlash among what may be fundamentally decent people who are upset that people aren't with the program of this being a Christian country, and why can't they just accept merry xmas wishes in the spirit in which they're intended.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 27 2009, 11:49 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I hear where you're coming from but I listen to enough talk radio to know that there is a big backlash among what may be fundamentally decent people who are upset that people aren't with the program of this being a Christian country, and why can't they just accept merry xmas wishes in the spirit in which they're intended.


Truthfully, I agree with them! I am tremendously thankful to live in a country that is generally sensitive and accommodating to those of other faiths, but we shouldn't forget that the U.S. is a Christian country. There is really no need to castigate every cashier or bank teller who either doesn't realize that not everyone is celebrating X-mas or who forgets to use the more ecumenical "Happy Holiday" greeting. Just thank them and move on.

While I understand that the pervasiveness of X-mas pageantry is annoying, I find it a tad disingenuous to claim that being offended by it is a reaction to the atrocities committed over the years under Christian leadership. If that were the case, we would be in an uproar over Mardi Gras and the start of Lent. This was the season associated with pogroms, crusades, and similar actions.

I suspect that there are two reasons people react with such vehemence about X-mas:

(a) It's a cheap and easy way to look frum. I have a relative who makes a big show of pretending not to know anything about X-mas customs. If he grew up in B'nai Brak, I'd buy it; but he grew up in Minneapolis, and I can assure you that he knows plenty. But he likes to show how pious he is, and this is a great way to do so without any pesky work. Yes, yes -- I know that's cynical of me, but I believe there are a number of people in this category!

(b) X-mas in the U.S. is crazily out of control. As Amother wrote, everything is about X-mas. No matter how negligible the link, advertisers and manufacturers try to tie their products to the holiday, suggesting that using detergent X with the mistletoe fragrance will put your household in the holiday spirit. But here's the thing: this saturation of holiday-themed commerce is actually just as bothersome to many Christians as it is to those of other faiths. What began as a low-key, serious feast day in the days of the early church has turned into a bacchanalian frenzy of eating, drinking, and spending.

So, yes, I'm glad when it's over every year, but there are plenty of greater threats in the U.S. to Jewish observance and continuity, and X-mas just isn't worth my ire.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 27 2009, 5:11 pm
Fox, there's a story that one of the people in the story tell, of the three chashuve American-born roshei yeshiva who are now pushing 80 who reminisced about their earlier education and sang some seasonal songs they remembered.

As a P.S., I never heard of nitel nacht when I was younger. I simply didn't grow up with the attitude that this is a time of tumah. Lots of other things, not necessarily positive, but not tumah. Maybe that's why I don't have this visceral reaction.
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Tova




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 27 2009, 6:16 pm
I find that at my work they try so hard not to offend ME (I am currently the only frum person, perhaps even the only Jewish person, in our 200+ person office) that it gets annoying.

[I don't mind the "holiday season" at work. Between Thanksgiving and Jan. 2 it is so laid back, most people take a lot of vacation, and it is a slow time for us. It is really my break, and I remember thinking that it was almost a "waste" that last year at this time I was on maternity leave.]

Some examples -

1) The admin staff decorates the office. There's a tree in the lobby (they ask people to put gifts under it which they donate to a homeless shelter) and x-mas decorations everywhere. They hang a stocking by everyone's nameplate with candy canes in it. So the first year they asked me if I am offended if they hang a stocking by mine. I said - totally no problem, I really don't mind, but I just asked to choose a more winter theme one (snowman, etc.) versus an x-man themed one (Santa, reindeer). So one year - one person showed me in a catalogue that she found a Hannukah stocking (blue and white w/ menorah and dreidels) and wanted to know if she can order it for my office... I said NO. I was very firm, but no way in a trillion years I could or would convey that THAT would be TRULY offensive and I would take down and have a very bad taste. Obviously it is all coming from a good place...

2) Just last week at our manager's scheduling meeting someone was talking about how one of our clients was so slow at getting us info (often missing deadlines) that "even if J---- himself would ask for it it would be late. The next week she was so apologetic to me that she said it. She thought it may be offensive to someone Jewish. No big deal to me.

I guess I am just used to it at work that it does not even register so much with me. b"H we live on a block that is 100% Jewish except ONE lovely black couple that never decorate but I always give her a present. She is an OR nurse and whenever she sees I am expecting she reminds me that if I go into labor on Shabbos I can just knock on her door and she will take me to the hospital.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 28 2009, 1:37 am
PinkFridge wrote:
amother wrote:
I don't know if I would call myself offended but there are some things that annoy me at this time of year

a) Why do they wish everyone including us a merry x-mas? why do they assume we are all xtians celebrating the same festival.

b)there is a misconception out there that Chanuka was invented to compensate for us not celebrating x-mas.
Yes we give Chanuka gelt but the idea behind that is to encourage kids to give tzedoka from their gelt.
Where did this concept of chanuka PRESENTS however come from? Is it merely an evolution of chanuka gelt or did it come from x-mas?


I hear where you're coming from but I listen to enough talk radio to know that there is a big backlash among what may be fundamentally decent people who are upset that people aren't with the program of this being a Christian country, and why can't they just accept merry xmas wishes in the spirit in which they're intended.
Ok I hear ya but I should have mentioned I don't live in the US.
The country I live in is rather multicultural.
I don't think of it as a xtian country. It's probably more atheistic
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