Study of a closed society (Chassidim)- How accurate is this?

life'sgreat

Sat, Jan 16 2010, 6:58 pm

Atali wrote:

Since when did the yated put a woman's name on her birth and engagement notices? Aren't they usually written as "Reuven Cohen is engaged to the daughter of Shimon Levi"?

They do seem to include the full name at her death, however.

The Hebrew Hamodia, as well as the others definitely have the name. I haven't read the English versions, but AFAIR, they did write Suri, daughter of X to Nafali, son of Y. Maybe that changed not that long ago, but I wouldn't know.

BinahYeteirah wrote:

Her position, as stated in other threads, is that going on the Internet for something like Imamother.com would be completely unacceptable in chassidishe circles in E"Y. So if you don't hold like that, then you aren't really "shtark" according to charedi/chassidishe standards where she lives (E"Y). She also says that Lubavitch isn't "really charedi" either. I'm not sure what the dividing line is exactly. But whatever...

(If I am misrepresenting your view, FS, I apologize. This is just what I have gleaned from other threads.)

EY and the US are two different worlds that are not comparable. Also, the chasidish world in Israel is more Israeli, so all of this is a moot point, as many of them don't even know English, let alone know how to use a computer. Also, this study was done in the US, in BP.

Lubavitch, within the chasidish world is a class unto its own. They have different shitos in many areas.

life'sgreat

Sat, Jan 16 2010, 7:06 pm

freidasima wrote:

It's close but let me clarify.
Lubavitch is not considered charedi by other charedim, that isn't my definition. It is chassidish, but various things which are routinely allowed by Lubavitch and are not condemned in the Lubavitch lifestyle (from wearing denim to using the internet, and certainly types of kiruv or rather methods which bring Lubavitchers very close proximity to secular and non Jewish society etc.) are totally ossured by any and every other chassidish group.

As for charedi and shtark charedi, it's definitely across the board here in EY that the only large chassidish group which is allowed point blank to use the internet is Chabad in EY. All others ossur it and all the big chassidish rabbonim signed every kol koreh in the book ossuring the internet. Lately some allow it for work only and never at home period. If you therefore have it at home and you are: Satmar, Ger, Vizhnitz, Bobov, Pupa, Belz, etc. then you are doing it "under the table" and can't be considered shtark here. Shtark keeps to what the rebbe says. Period.

So with very very few exceptions, any chassidish poster using the internet who isn't Lubavitch and hasn't specifically gotten a heter, can't be considered "shtark" because the definition of "shtark" is just that - following exactly what your rebbe says. That would mean that the chassidish posters on Imamother aren't shtark by that definition.

If anyone has a different definition for shtark that doesn't include following precisely what your Rebbe has said about internet, I would be interested in hearing it.

As for the Litvish, it seems to be a bit more common to get heters to use the internet for work at home, even though Litvish gedolim have signed the Kol Koreh. Hence Litvish posters here are another story as I am assuming they are here with a Heter.

As I wrote before, comparing chareidi in Israel to American, never mind Israeli chasidish to American chasidish. They are two different ballgames entirely. There is almost no rav in the US that will assur the internet if you need it for business, in the home. Even the schools/chadarim that assur it, will allow it if you have it for business.

The level of frumkeit/shtarkeit is not measured by usage of internet or not.

gp2.0

Sat, Jan 16 2010, 11:01 pm

Mevater wrote:

When a man passes her in the street, “Gitty”, a Chasidic girl from New York, says she steps aside.

When I see a woman, I also step aside. What should I do, walk right into them? LOL

Quote:

Chasidic girls are taught from an early age to “fit in”. Mothers practise positive reinforcement, rewarding respectful behaviour. Meanwhile, they systematically ignore questions perceived as challenging to authority.

This depends on the family. IMO all mothers, secular or Jewish, try to teach their children, through positive reinforcement, to be respectful. And I grew up in a family with excellent communication with my parents. If I had any kind of question about authority or religion, I asked my parents and they answered me. They never ignored my questions.

Quote:

it is the women who are expected to support their husbands, pay the bills, and take the children to the doctor.

Again this differs from family to family. Many chassidim I know go to work so they can support their families. They don't expect their wives to run the home and bring home parnassa. Paying bills - again different everywhere. Many women pay bills simply because their English is better and they have more experience with the secular world, since by the time they're married they've probably been working for a year or two, whereas their husbands have been in yeshiva.

Quote:

Rather, she says, they take what they need from the modern world and put it to a Jewish purpose.

This, IMO, is a wonderful thing to do. Instead of outlawing something because it's secular, we use it for Jewish purposes. I would like to think that all Jews do this, not just Chassidim.

Quote:

they still portray the outside world as wholly negative to their followers.

It should be impossible for parents to do both the quote from above and this one. Either you learn to adapt with the modern world or you portray it as being wholly negative. The two statements contradict each other.

Quote:

She made a face of disgust, implying that ‘they’ have weddings that are all for show, involving no real familial feelings...Chasidic society has no monopoly on caring, morality — or, indeed, Yiddishkeit.”

Yes, this simple lack of education is quite common among Chassidim. However, many Chassidim realize that there are many ways of life, degrees of being Jewish and even other religions which are not automatically bad simply because they are not Jewish to the same degree or Jewish at all. There is no chiyuv for non jews to be Jewish. As long as they are decent, nice people (who keep the sheva mitzvos bnei noach, according to some) they are fulfilling their roles in this world. And Chassidim realize that they keep a lot of extra minhagim which do not, perhaps, make them better Jews, but are simply part of their mesorah and the way they feel that Judaism should be practiced. They do not assume that they are better than other Jews simply because they are keeping more chumros. Sure, you will have some people who feel and act 'holier-than-thou' but they are not the majority.

It is sometimes difficult to come to these conclusions when growing up in a closed society, and many Chassidim (and Jews of many other sects) never do reach the depth of understanding to realize that [gentile] doesn't equal bad, but obviously I have come to these conclusions, and I doubt I'm the only one.

EDIT: I would like to add that it is pointless to issue blank statements about any group or society, be they Chassidim, Litvaks, Jews, non jews, Americans, Israelis, etc. There are all kinds of stereotypes out there, and even the ones that are sometimes true are not true in every case. There are all kinds of people in all kinds of groups. No two people in the world are exactly the same, therefore it is impossible to say that everyone from a particular group behaves the same way or perceives things in the same way.

freidasima

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 6:38 am

Life's great, if what you say is true then there is a chasm that is enormous between chassidim in EY and abroad. There are sites not exactly like Imamother but women's discussion groups, in Hebrew on the internet and you wouldn't find a "normal" charedi woman there, only the fringes. Even women who might have a heter for work to be on the internet, like my own secretary who is charedi litvish, would neve rin her life consider going into there. If she wants to read the news she will open Ynet or some other news site, but that's it. Period.

And in chassidish circles to get a heter to use the internet at home isn't really that easy and usually women aren't working so we are talking men and the filters necessary would filter out any sites other than regular things like banks etc.

It's a different world

The idea of the street belonging to men? I remember years ago yet in Bayit vegan the patchkevilim being put up asking women and girls NOT to walk on the street at all on Friday nights and shabbosim so that it could be only for men. In Bayit vegan yet, not Geula, not Meah Shearim!

Yes in charedi life the "street" whether physically or metaphorically, does belong to women.

As for teaching or not teaching these things in school, again maybe a difference between EY and abroad. In BY in EY you can be sure that these things are taught in school. That the street belongs to women. Ultra tznius in everything. That non jews and especially arabs are created to serve yidden and that's their only purpose on this earth, that they aren't really human beings like the "am nivchar" etc.

Guess what? Even in some chardal circles, which are supposed to be more "national" than charedi, you will hear such sentiments in their schools.

So I guess EY is a very different world. By EY charedi standards, women from charedi and especially chassidic groups abroad who go onto internet chat sites or forums like this aren't acting like charedi women should! And as for Vizhnitz, wow...here Vizhnitz is one of the most closed and most cut off groups when it comes to things like that. They teach the girls so little about various things and they are kept cut off from anything that might lead to an outlet to the secular world, internet included except maybe using it for typing word documents etc. But that's a computer, not internet.

life'sgreat

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 2:40 pm

amother wrote:

Actually 'life'sgreat', I'm also from this world and yes we do put taps (or tabs or whatever it is) on our shoes so they don't make noise , because it's not tznius for a man to hear a woman's heels clicking

I don't know where you live, but this is the first I hear about it. And I don't stick to one circle, one crowd, or even one city, so this is really surprising. I don't think there's been a woman I know who's had a tap put on their shoes in the last 15 years.

freidasima wrote:

Yes, there is a HUGE chasm between the Israeli and the rest of the Chasidish world. Especially American. In these areas you can't compare it at all.

The whole pashkevillin thing is also very different in Israel than in the US.

The stuff you are talking about in schools there isn't the stuff that is taught here. At least not when I was in school.

You misunderstood. Viznitz here is also more cut off etc... than the others.