inviting non-Jewish friend to shul

amother

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 3:38 pm

I have a friend that I have known for years, but she does not live in my area. She is not Jewish.

This friend is taking a class on comparative religions and has to go to a shul for Shabbos to view it. The only shul in her area is reform. Obviously I don't want her going there to see a 'Shabbat service" because it'll be -shall I say "not halachically correct."

So I invited her and her son to come her for a weekend to see our shul. No, she is not interested in Judaism for herself. This is for a class only, but she is uber-respectful of Judaism, and already is a religious woman and dresses/acts modestly.

Would you have any problems if someone not Jewish came to your shul and respectfully and quietly sat through davening?

ANSWER THIS QUESTION FIRST - HONESTLY- and then look at what I write below and tell me if you answer changed.

Please answer with
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This woman is an African American Muslim (not Nation of Islam)

racheleezzy

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 3:43 pm

I dont care what religion she is from I dont thnk she belongs in a shul analyzing or whatever she is doing.... She doesn't know nor does she understand the customs or the reasons behind why we do what we do.....How biased will she be when she writes whatever she is writing..... If she is in the shul bc she is converting to Judaism and wants to get a feel of an orthodox shul than fine... otherwise I dont belive that studies or reviews need to be done in our shuls.

amother

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 3:51 pm

racheleezzy wrote:

OP here

She will be going to a shul one way or another for this class. I figured it would be better for her to go to a Torah true shul, with someone along to explain everything to her afterward, than to a reform performance that could have little to do with actual Judaism.

Also, since she is modest and used to separate praying, going to a reform service may be a little shocking for her

SarahO. wrote:

reaction 1: what would my Rav suggest?

reaction 2: what would my Rav suggest?

I will be calling my rav, but right now I am not asking for permission, I am trying to gauge the laypersons reaction. When I am ready to approach my rav, I will tell him all the pertinent facts and go from there. This is just an informal survey. If one of the members of your shul walked in with this woman, would you be welcoming or upset?

grace413

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 3:56 pm

If a strange person came to my shul how would I possibly know if they were Jewish or not? And if I knew they were not Jewish somehow, why would I think it was any of my business?

If she plans to wear Moslem apparel like a hijab than she would stand out and I imagine people would be uncomfortable.

In many shuls non-Jewish people come to attend a Bar Mitzvah or other event being celebrated during the service. I don't think most people are bothered by it.

However, if the entire davening is in Hebrew, I imagine she won't get much out of it and you aren't going to provide a running commentary.

NotInNJMommy

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 4:05 pm

I wouldn't be bothered. If I were in this position, I'd ask her to refrain from taking notes or pictures, etc. out of respect of our shabbos. If you came in with her and made it clear you knew her--well, I have never been in a situation where any type of stranger, especially one who appears to be non-Jewish coming into shul and behaving respectfully and being a friend of someone there, would be an issue, but I live OOT and in a somewhat diverse and small community.

Of course, I'm not a rav so I don't know the appropriate thing to do from your end.

amother

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 4:14 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Raisin wrote:

I certainly wouldn't suggest wearing a hijab. In our shul she wouldn't get past the security with that on.

your shul has security???

I believe this is quite commonplace in Europe.

OP - I have no idea what the difference is between being Muslim and Nation of Muslim... (or did you just mean she's not from an Arab country??) But anyhow, we have non-Jews in our shul all the time and so long as people are respectful it doesn't bother me in the least. However if I saw a woman sitting dressed in traditional muslim garb, I think I would feel pretty uncomfortable. Right or wrong, I don't think I could help it.

Raisin

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 4:14 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Raisin wrote:

I certainly wouldn't suggest wearing a hijab. In our shul she wouldn't get past the security with that on.

your shul has security???

What if this woman always wears a hijab out of modesty, she cant exactly take it off? maybe tie it like a tichel instead

yes. They ask your name/id if they don't recognise you. If someone says they are not carrying id becasue it is shabbos they know to let you in.

(I think it is a tad unneccessary but whatever.)

Lovemylife

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 4:15 pm

My husband and I have a (pretty close) friend that is not Jewish, sort of interested in it, and really really respectful. He comes to us often for Shabbat meals and to shul with my DH. He wears a kippah, (out of respect) fits right in, reads the English tefilot.

I have no issue with your friend being black (mine is white and looks sort of Jewish) but because of political sensitivity I would refrain from bringing an overtly muslim person to our shul. NOT at all because I believe someone of Islamic faith shouldn't be in a shul, but that there is a great chance that some might be offended by their presence.

ora_43

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 4:25 pm

It would depend on a lot of things. Size of the shul, location of the shul, and how clear it'll be that she's just watching and not taking part.

I'd be uncomfortable with someone just sitting and staring. It's nice to feel unnoticed while praying, at least for me.

But if she dresses somewhat like everyone else and stands and sits at more or less the same time, it'd be acceptable, at least in the shuls I've been to.

I wouldn't recommend taking her to an entire service though. Like previous posters said, it is in Hebrew, how interesting can it be for her?

amother

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 4:26 pm

amother wrote:

OP - I have no idea what the difference is between being Muslim and Nation of Muslim... (or did you just mean she's not from an Arab country??) But anyhow, we have non-Jews in our shul all the time and so long as people are respectful it doesn't bother me in the least. However if I saw a woman sitting dressed in traditional muslim garb, I think I would feel pretty uncomfortable. Right or wrong, I don't think I could help it.

OPer here

Muslim is, no matter what race or national origin, someone who believes in HaShem, but with Mohammed as a prophet and the quaran as a holy book

Nation of Islam is a group that started in America back in the 1930, which adopted many Muslim practices, but was solely for African-Americans.

(from wikipedia) a religious organization founded in Detroit, Michigan by Wallace D. Fard Muhammad in July 1930, with the goal of resurrecting the spiritual, mental, social, and economic condition of the black men and women of America. The N.O.I. also promotes the belief that God will bring about a universal government of peace.[1] Mainstream Muslims consider the group an independent religion that has adopted Islamic elements rather than as an Islamic sect due to the differing beliefs of the concept of God, race, prophecy, and many others.[2][3] However, in recent years the group has come a little closer to orthodox Islam by observing Ramadan and the Friday prayers.
Since 1978, Louis Farrakhan has been the leader of a reconstituted N.O.I., the original organization having been renamed and dissolved by Warith Deen Muhammad. The N.O.I.'s national center and headquarters are located in Chicago, Illinois, which is also home to its flagship Mosque No. 2, Mosque Maryam. As of 2005, the N.O.I. has been included in the Southern Poverty Law Center's list of active hate groups in the United States.[4] A meeting in 2000 gathered about 20,000 members.[5]

So maybe NOI started out as a good concept (so it sounds), but pretty much it was a bunch of people saying 'our ancestors were forced to be Christian by their owners when they were slaves, so we will pick the religion that will piss them off the most' (at least the way I see it)

amother

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 4:29 pm

ora_43 wrote:

OP again!!

yes, she will be dressed modest Very Happy

We live OOT in a very BT/convert/out of the box community. We are MO.

Id probably take her in for a bit of leining, and a bit of musaf, but besides that, just chat with the other women or go to the kiddie minyan.

And biggest thing for her paper on Judaism is that she see Judaism in the home, since that is the real center of Jewish life.

Mrs Bissli

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 5:59 pm

You will have to brief your friends about Do's (standing up when appropriate) and Don'ts (esp taking notes, photos and mobile phones), as well as general description of the service. And you should definitely ask/inform the pulpit rabbi.

Yes, most UK synagogues I know have volunteer security guards from CST (Community Security Trust). Not because it's dangerous, but showing alertness can prevent unwanted incidences.

MRS.Mentsch

Mon, Jan 18 2010, 8:24 pm

amother wrote:

She will be going to a shul one way or another for this class. I figured it would be better for her to go to a Torah true shul, with someone along to explain everything to her afterward, than to a reform performance that could have little to do with actual Judaism.

Also, since she is modest and used to separate praying, going to a reform service may be a little shocking for her

I would think you might want to say something different to your friend. Think of saying something like this: Friend, while there is a shul near you, it'd be so much more fun for you to come here....since the home is the center of Yiddishkeit you can see how I do things, since there is so much more to what we do than going to a service.

Instead of making a chillul Hashem, make it a kiddish Hashem by saying...just like every church or mosque (I would think) is different, so too are shuls. I know many people who would be extremely offended (Jews inlcuded) by your comment about "a reform performance that could have little to do with actual Judaism"

To answer your question, I agree with all the above posters but, have you thought about just going through a service at your home, with your husband. This may be easier for her to understand, more enjoyable and educational. Very Happy