Marrying A Niece | Imamother

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 9:01 am

It was a little awkward at family gatherings for the first few years.
We had a little tension between us.
But over the years we have gone on with our lives and we are pretty friendly.
I also was the one who broke it off. So I guess it was easier for me... and harder for him.

It is complicated to date within a family since everyone has opinions and the whole situation can be potentially embarassing (if it wasn;t the parents idea for example.... they may be super shocked)

On the whole... I would consider him an ex boyfriend who I learned to befriend out of necessity. I still love him very much. Just not romantically Smile

Boy does this get complicated...

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 9:01 am

Boy does this get complicated...

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 9:01 am

Boy does this get complicated...

greenfire

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 10:20 am

I know several marriages with 2 sisters marrying 2 brothers ... on some level to me it shows more compatibility since they were able to have two marriages in the same families ...

what I have trouble figuring out is why can an uncle marry a niece - but an aunt not marry a nephew ... although I too would find it a little nauseating ...

as for marrying cousins - where does it begin and where does it end ... first cousins 3x removed or simply 3rd cousins or just first cousins ... either way it seems odd as well - but that's how they did it back in the day to preserve family yichus ...

anyways at least you can have an excuse when you all come out NUTso ... Nervous

Isramom8

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 10:29 am

When I started this thread, I didn't realize how common marrying a niece is today. I meant it more theoretically. In no way did I mean to offend anyone or question their family practices. Please forgive me if I upset anyone here.

Ruchel

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 10:48 am

life'sgreat wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

two sisters marrying two brothers: there is no way this is forbidden, I have seen it in all types of families, from modern to charedi to very traditional to very learned to rabbinical.

awkward for the outside world: most of what we do is. Period.

I have not said it is. I said that according to Rabbeinu Gershom and those who keep to it, it shouldn't be done.

I would be interested to know who holds that way.

Among the examples of those who do it, I know of Sefardim, Mizrachim, Chabad, chassidim, Yekkes...

Seraph

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 11:08 am

greenfire wrote:

what I have trouble figuring out is why can an uncle marry a niece - but an aunt not marry a nephew ... although I too would find it a little nauseating ...

I was actually discussing this with someone on shabbos.
Guys usually are attracted to most females. So it comes to reason that its natural for a man to be attracted to his brother or sister's daughters.
Women, on the other hand, are a little more selective in who they are attracted to, and I would bet most women would be weirded out about the idea of their sibling's kid- marrying their nephew and even being attracted to their nephew is more farfetched because of how women work.

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 11:11 am

Seraph wrote:

Guys usually are attracted to most females.

This has not quite been my experience...

Isramom8

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 11:13 am

Seraph, how does that make sense? It works both ways - the nephew could be attracted to the aunt, and the niece could be unattracted to the uncle. Confused

joy613

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 11:14 am

gold21 wrote:

I just wanted to add that theres no halachic issue with lesbianism. so...should we encourage lesbianism? NO.

Gold, I'm curious as to where you get your halachic information from. Apparently not from the Shulchan Aruch. It says there that it is assur as being like maaseh mitzraim.
If there would be no halachic issue with something, then there would be no problem with it.

If you don't like something which is halachally allowed, dont do it.

Seraph

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 11:41 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Seraph, how does that make sense? It works both ways - the nephew could be attracted to the aunt, and the niece could be unattracted to the uncle. Confused

Most men are attracted to most good looking females just because they're beautiful, whereas women think more deeply into things.
Same reason why men use women they pay, but women don't usually pay men to do them favors, ahem, ya know?
In terms of uncle/aunt... well... your sister's kid and your mom's sibling are in two different boats, at least in my head.

Ruchel

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 11:54 am

Marrying a Niece or Cousin

Dear Rabbi Brody, am I allowed according to Halacha to marry my niece or my cousin? Would there be any medical or genetic dangers? Thank you, YY from the Tel Aviv area

Dear YY,

Your superb question is mentioned in the Gemorra, tractate Yevamot, 62b, on the bottom of the page. Indeed, our sages both encourage and bless anyone that marries a niece. Rashi states that the Gemorra is referring specifically to the daughter of a sister; since a man naturally loves his sister, says Rashi, he will have a special affection for a wife who is the daughter of his sister. The Tosephos argue as follows: Rabbenu Tam agrees with Rashi, and says that the mitzva is to marry the daughter of a sister specifically (more than a brother), because the daughter of a sister will bring her husband good fortune and sons who resemble the father. The Rashbam disagrees with Rashi and with Rabbenu Tam, and says that marrying the daughter of a brother is just as good a mitzva as marrying the daughter of a sister. The Rambam, in agreement with the rationale of the Rashbam stipulates (Hilchot Issure Beia, 2:14), that it's a "mitzvat khakhamim", a rabbinical ordnance, to marry a niece, whether she's the daughter of a sister or a brother. As far as practical Halacha goes, The Rama rules that Ikar HaDin (Principle Halacha) is, "It's a mitzva to marry the daughter of a sister", then adds, "There are those who say that it is also a mitzva to marry the daughter of a brother. (See Shulkhan Oruch, Even Ezer 2:6)." In other words, the Rama tends to agree with Rashi and Rabbenu Tam, but doesn't ignore the Rashbam.

As far as the second half of your question, the Melitzer Rebbe shlit'a in the name of his grandfather, the holy Shatzer Rov of blessed and saintly memory, that ever since Abraham married his niece Sarah, there has been a blessing among Jews for marrying nieces. Also, the Shatzer Rov wrote that the doctor's warnings about hemophilia and other genetic or medical flaws as in the case of the European monarchies does not apply to a family that observes halacha, most specifically, family purity and refraining from forbidden relations. In short, if you have a worthy niece, whether the daughter of a brother or a sister, you are allowed to marry her; not only that, but you will merit the blessings of our sages from the Gemorra. In any event, I strongly urge to test for Tay-Sach's disease before you even begin approaching the prospective match.

As far as cousins go, the Shatzer Rov (see "Or Ganuz, parshat Mattot/Massaei) says that whenever the Torah says "good", according to esoteric tradition and the Arizal, there is an eternal blessing. Hashem told Moshe Rabbenu to tell the daughters of Tslophkhod to marry their cousins (see Bamidbar 36: 5-13), and the Torah says "tov" about it (ibid, verse 6). From here, the Shatzer Rov zatza"l says it's very good to marry a cousin. If it worked for Bnot Tslophkhod, it'll work for you. It's worth noting that quite a few of the Melitzer Rebbe's 12 children are happily married to cousins. With Blessings always, LB

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 6:17 pm

Does anyone know what is the reason tha aunt/nephew is not allowed? Thanks

Fabulous

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 6:25 pm

I have a chassidish aunt and uncle (from dh's side) that their daughter married her uncle (her father's brother). Her husband's brother became his shver.

life'sgreat

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 7:05 pm

greenfire wrote:

what I have trouble figuring out is why can an uncle marry a niece - but an aunt not marry a nephew ... although I too would find it a little nauseating ...

I might be wrong, but IIRC, it is because of Kavod or Derech Eretz, or however you want to call it. The aunt being from the older generation would mean the nephew has to be mechabed her in a way and that is not the way the chachomim look at marriage. The man being the uncle, means the kavod the wife gives him is more appropriate (I know I really didn't explain it well, but I think you can get the picture).

Ruchel wrote:

I would be interested to know who holds that way.

Among the examples of those who do it, I know of Sefardim, Mizrachim, Chabad, chassidim, Yekkes...

Who holds by Rabbeinu Gershom?

You will not find too many Chasidim who will do such shidduchim.

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 7:31 pm

life'sgreat wrote:

greenfire wrote:

what I have trouble figuring out is why can an uncle marry a niece - but an aunt not marry a nephew ... although I too would find it a little nauseating ...

I was the one who asked about aunt/nephew.
If this is hte case, it's incrediblt sexist! A husband is not supposed to honor his wife?!!

mali

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 7:37 pm

amother wrote:

Does anyone know what is the reason tha aunt/nephew is not allowed? Thanks

because the torah says so: (vayikra 20:19) יט וְעֶרְוַת אֲחוֹת אִמְּךָ וַאֲחוֹת אָבִיךָ, לֹא תְגַלֵּה: כִּי אֶת-שְׁאֵרוֹ הֶעֱרָה, עֲו‍ֹנָם יִשָּׂאוּ.

mali

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 7:39 pm

life'sgreat wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

I would be interested to know who holds that way.

Among the examples of those who do it, I know of Sefardim, Mizrachim, Chabad, chassidim, Yekkes...

Who holds by Rabbeinu Gershom?

You will not find too many Chasidim who will do such shidduchim.

they can do such shidduchim, but they cannot live in the same city.

doodlesmom

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 9:11 pm

[quote

I was the one who asked about aunt/nephew.
If this is hte case, it's incrediblt sexist! A husband is not supposed to honor his wife?!![/quote]

The right word would probably be more RESPECT than honor

mali

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 9:17 pm

doodlesmom wrote:

amother wrote:

I was the one who asked about aunt/nephew.
If this is hte case, it's incrediblt sexist! A husband is not supposed to honor his wife?!!

The right word would probably be more RESPECT than honor

it doesn't really matter because this isn't the reason an aunt doesn't marry her nephew. the reason is because the torah forbids it.