Marrying A Niece | Imamother

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 9:18 pm

doodlesmom wrote:

[quote

I was the one who asked about aunt/nephew.
If this is hte case, it's incrediblt sexist! A husband is not supposed to honor his wife?!!

The right word would probably be more RESPECT than honor[/quote]

Okay, so a man should not RESPECT his wife?!!!!!!!

Mali, are you telling me it's a chok?

mali

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 9:26 pm

it's written along with all other issurei erva, most of which are assur due to immorality. if there's a different reason, it's stated in the possuk (for example, not marrying two sisters is in order not to bring hate between them).
the possuk says:
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is the close relative of your father.
and
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister, for she is the close relative of your mother.

greenfire

Sun, Jan 24 2010, 10:16 pm

amother wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

greenfire wrote:

what I have trouble figuring out is why can an uncle marry a niece - but an aunt not marry a nephew ... although I too would find it a little nauseating ...

I might be wrong, but IIRC, it is because of Kavod or Derech Eretz, or however you want to call it. The aunt being from the older generation would mean the nephew has to be mechabed her in a way and that is not the way the chachomim look at marriage. The man being the uncle, means the kavod the wife gives him is more appropriate (I know I really didn't explain it well, but I think you can get the picture).

I was the one who asked about aunt/nephew.
If this is hte case, it's incrediblt sexist! A husband is not supposed to honor his wife?!!

I asked the same query - and I would have to agree with you Confused

Mama Bear

Mon, Jan 25 2010, 12:38 am

my father's parents have this situation; my grandmotehr's sister was maried to my grandfatner's brother. But this was right after the war, so I guess it was simply a recommendation from my great uncle that his sister in law would be a great match for his brother. you didnt think so carefully back then.

life'sgreat

Mon, Jan 25 2010, 12:41 am

amother wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

greenfire wrote:

what I have trouble figuring out is why can an uncle marry a niece - but an aunt not marry a nephew ... although I too would find it a little nauseating ...

I was the one who asked about aunt/nephew.
If this is hte case, it's incrediblt sexist! A husband is not supposed to honor his wife?!!

It isn't about honor. It's that there's presumably a lack of respect/honor from an aunt to a nephew?

But again, this is what I recall. I see someone posted a source for this halacha.

Ruchel

Mon, Jan 25 2010, 5:58 am

mali wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

I would be interested to know who holds that way.

Among the examples of those who do it, I know of Sefardim, Mizrachim, Chabad, chassidim, Yekkes...

Who holds by Rabbeinu Gershom?

You will not find too many Chasidim who will do such shidduchim.

they can do such shidduchim, but they cannot live in the same city.

I'm trying to think hard if they lived in the same place lol.
I know of some Sefardi, Chabad and Yekke who did live in the same place.

JewishMommyNYC

Sun, Apr 27 2014, 9:57 pm

Disgusting. It's sick in my opinion. I know a Persian family who is like this and it's awful. I think they have some genetic problems. By the way, there was a divorce among them and things were and still are very distorted in the family because people are so intertwined.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Apr 27 2014, 10:30 pm

Uncle - niece is permitted because the uncle, being older, can protect the niece. There might be rare situations where he's the only man around who can be trusted with her. Such as after a war. Having her marry a person unknown to her family before the war would leave her vulnerable. Her uncle presumably cares about her.

That doesn't work for an aunt-nephew couple. The nephew is younger, much younger. How can he protect the aunt, he is too young to have power, whether physical, social, military, or financial. Marrying him does the aunt no good. As a much older wife, she could end up despised by a young man as old and ugly. He might easily cheat on her with a woman his age.

Even more so if fertility were an issue, which it easily could be, with an older woman. Better she remain single and living in his house as a pensioner relative, if he can contribute that much to her life, and he marry a younger woman.

So, the first situation is allowed, because of its potential to protect a woman. In my opinion this permitted option should only be used where it is gravely needed, in a crisis, where all alternatives seem unacceptable. But it is permitted. Yes.

The second situation is never allowed, because it affords no protection to a woman, and, very obviously sets her up for bad treatment.

As has been said a million times before, the Torah always has a drawn sword to protect women. The Torah is fierce in its protection of women. Judaism is very pro-woman.

The above is merely my musings and has no source whatever.

DrMom

Sun, Apr 27 2014, 10:37 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

That doesn't work for an aunt-nephew couple. The nephew is younger, much younger. How can he protect the aunt, he is too young to have power, whether physical, social, military, or financial. Marrying him does the aunt no good. As a much older wife, she could end up despised by a young man as old and ugly. He might easily cheat on her with a woman his age.

The first situation is allowed because of its potential to protect a woman.

The second situation is not allowed because it affords no protection to a woman, and, sets her up for bad treatment.

Interesting theory, but the Torah does not specify that the man must be older than the women.
Also, it is possible for a neice can be older than her uncle.

Deep

Sun, Apr 27 2014, 10:38 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Uncle - niece is permitted because the uncle, being older, can protect the niece. There might be rare situations where he's the only man around who can be trusted with her. Such as after a war. Having her marry a person unknown to her family before the war would leave her vulnerable. Her uncle presumably cares about her.

That doesn't work for an aunt-nephew couple. The nephew is younger, much younger. How can he protect the aunt, he is too young to have power, whether physical, social, military, or financial. Marrying him does the aunt no good. As a much older wife, she could end up despised by a young man as old and ugly. He might easily cheat on her with a woman his age.

The first situation is allowed because of its potential to protect a woman.

The second situation is not allowed because it affords no protection to a woman, and, sets her up for bad treatment.

As has been said a million times before, the Torah always has a drawn sword to protect women, in its rulings. The Torah is fierce in its protection of women. Judaism is very pro-woman.

The above is merely my musings and has no source whatever.

Interesting hypothesis, yet easily refuted by the fact that a nephew can be older than his aunt. My sister was an aunt many times over at birth.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Apr 27 2014, 10:49 pm

Yes that can certainly happen.

However ordinarily the uncle is a generation above the niece, and the nephew a generation below the aunt. Actual ages may be as you describe, but there is no arguing with the generational structure. Your parents' siblings are MOSTLY older than MOST of yours, in theory.

One could also imagine an older, wealthy woman snapping up a valuable young men who has social and financial potential, to the detriment of a young girl in a weaker social position. The Torah doesn't want that, perhaps. You can see that would also hurt both women eventually.

This also protects a wealthy aunt, a vulnerable older woman, from being married just for her money by an ambitious nephew.

Just because sometimes the ages don't break out that way doesn't mean these concerns go away.

This may well be a choik, and we don't get to know why one is permitted and the other is not. I made a stab at seeing the practical logic in it.

There I go musing again. No source.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, Apr 27 2014, 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

gold21

Sun, Apr 27 2014, 11:06 pm

LOL!
It was really funny to look over this thread. How old was I in 2010?
24?
Cute.

By the way, I still find uncle-niece marriages awkward, if only because it's so foreign to me....I really loved having a close relationship with my uncles growing up... but they're much older than me...