How Much Tuition Do You Pay?

WriterMom

Sun, May 02 2010, 10:49 pm

amother wrote:

WriterMom wrote:

Out of curiosity, why the range? Does "20k per kid, no breaks" mean for boarding school or something? Are some cities far more expensive for frum Jews to live in? I can't quite wrap my brain around having to spend that much on tuition, especially for multiple kids. That's in the neighborhood of the Ivy League, but that's just 4 years!

(Not judging ... just cannot fathom it. 20k per kid, no breaks, would be more than our after tax income, actually pretty close to our before tax income, and I think of us as comfortable, not wealthy but also not impoverished.)

That's elementary school. High school is more.

And its not even close to Ivy Leauge costs. The total budget, including tution, housing and expenses, at the University of Pennsylvania, to choose one Ivy League school, is $55,000 for 2010-11, with tuition just a hair over $40,000.

I'm always amazed that any school can charge less. 20 kids per class. In the lower grades, call it 4 teachers per class -- teacher and assistant for chol, same for linudei kodesh. At $5000 tuition, even if every penny went to faculty, the average salary would be $25,000 per year. And that excludes costs of the building, heat, books, equipment, administration. That's not even mentioning health insurance. How can these school survive?

Yikes, the Ivy League went up Tongue Out

In our area, yes there are 4 staff per class - but each teacher and aide does half a day with a class (half chol half kodesh.) And aides make very little here, so if you have 20 kids at $5000 each, that's $200 000 for two classes, which has to pay for two teachers and two aides, who might make a 2:1 ratio. Now obviously it doesn't all go to salaries for teachers; there's a principal who does little teaching because more management and admin, a bookkeeper/admin assistant, cleaning costs for the facility, and so on. Around here most schools are in a shul, the Chabad school is in a Chabad-owned building, etc - so while they have costs associated with the use of the building, they're not paying retail rent per square foot the way a store would be, for instance. And there are fundraisers, and some families/foundations/individuals who give a great deal of money both for bursaries and to lower overall costs.

It's not that I don't think good teachers should get more - it's one of the most important jobs out there, and it means a great deal to me that my children grow up loving yiddishkeit and also secular education. But if my only option was a school that cost $20k per kid? It would be a) public school or b) a very small family. Both of which strike me as very sad outcomes. I'll overshare and say that I really wish we would make more than $100k, but I don't see it happening until a decade or two down the road, when it'll be worth less in buying power anyway. If I paid $20k for 4 kids we literally would not have what to live on. And we don't live lavishly, but house plus utilities plus taxes plus (kosher!) groceries plus gas and insurance for the one minivan ... it adds up! Are salaries way higher in major US cities?

Fascinating discussion, btw. I really don't want to come off as critical, it's just that this is a very different world than the one I'm in, and I'm interested in hearing about it. If nothing else, it puts our comparatively low tuition in perspective! And something that I love here - it's a sliding scale based on number of children. We should be encouraging large families, and I think that's a fantastic way to do so!

amother

Sun, May 02 2010, 11:24 pm

We pay about $500 for 4 kids. We homeschool! Smile

WriterMom

Sun, May 02 2010, 11:25 pm

amother wrote:

We pay about $500 for 4 kids. We homeschool! Smile

Awesome. I fantasize about doing that Very Happy

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 2:18 am

Amother above, can I ask where in the midwest you live? I live in the midwest as well and to put our dd in the equievalant of a frum day care is $5000 a year.

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 2:24 am

amother wrote:

We pay $3,600 for each of our 3 kids in K and older (full day). for our preschoolers we pay $950 for one and $1,750 for the other. Plus $650 in fees for the family. Total - $14,150. Full tuition would have been $37,100.

We live in the midwest.

sorry, this is the post I meant to quote.

benchwarmer

Mon, May 03 2010, 7:29 am

Excellent topic! I would love to know the location of where everyone is, I see some have written it.

I am located in the 5 towns area of Long Island, that encompasses, Inwood, Cedarhurst, Lawrence, Woodmere(includes North Woodmere/Valley Stream) and Hewlett. I think the two yeshivish boys schools are comparable with one another (I send to one of them Yeshivah Ketana of Long Island in Inwood). The coed Hebrew Academy type schools like Haftr and Halb cost a bit more, I have a friend that sends to one so we've compared.

We pay full tuition as do a lot of parents at our school I have a feeling, I also think there are a lot of dual working families.

Yeshiva Ketana this year's fees were:

2k per year for the building fund, I have a feeling this is for a total of 6k spread out in 2k installments per year
$600 for the dinner, stayed the same for next year. You pay for the dinner regardless if you attend.
$7k for 3 yr. old nursery
$8k for pre-1a which is the equivalent of Kindergarden in a public school, some people call it pre-1a

for next year this is our breakdown:
2k for the building fund, it will be our second year paying it and second year at the school
$600 for the dinner
$11k for 1st grade (up by 3k from last year's pre-1a tuition!!)
$9,200 for 4 yr. old nursery which they call k at this school
total cost for two little boys is a whopping $22,600 shock

Dh and I live a very modest lifestyle. We are not home owners and will probably end up buying the cheaper end homes in our area that are in the 300's currently, G-d willing they stay low when we are ready to buy. We don't take vacations, but I'm not a vacation kind of person, I like being home. We used to go to New Hampshire for Succos that's our kind of vacation. Only my oldest w/ special needs goes to a special needs camp that is half day, I work with him on Hebrew and English academics before camp. I work with my other two children on academics throughout the summer day and we swim at my parents a few times a week or go to the park to play and run around. My younger boys have voiced that they don't want to go to camp. But I really enjoy the time I spend with them during the summer bec. I miss them when they are at school and they're only little once.

I do not have a cleaning lady, but I am the rare person that actually enjoys cleaning read too controlling of how I like things cleaned, I clean the kids bathroom everyday to give you an idea of my level of neurosis embarrassed

MiamiMommy

Mon, May 03 2010, 9:30 am

I'm in Miami:

9,900.00 for infant care
11,000.00 for elementary (2 in elementary)

My bill is over 30,000.00! I work in school, full time, and receive more than a 50% discount. I chose to work rather then ask for a huge discount. My paycheck covers tuition, cleaning lady (1x per week), and some other bills. It's nice not having to get a big bill in the mail over the summer!

I forgot to add that (through a very generous donor) the school gives staff food for Pesach. Chicken, gefilte fish, matzah, wine, and grape juice!

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 9:37 am

15K for 4 kids including transportation and day camp. Kids range from preschool (1) to middle school (3). And this is the full price. People with a discount pay alot less. building fund was paid for the first three years that my oldest started school - I think 2K each year for 3 years

shmoozer

Mon, May 03 2010, 10:38 am

OMG!!! who need 4 teachers per 20 kids!! is this a special needs school?!?!?

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 11:24 am

amother wrote:

Amother above, can I ask where in the midwest you live? I live in the midwest as well and to put our dd in the equievalant of a frum day care is $5000 a year.

St. Louis

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 11:31 am

amother wrote:

whereever you live we are moving there! Where do you live anyway?

mommalah

Mon, May 03 2010, 11:35 am

amother wrote:

where do u live?

benchwarmer

Mon, May 03 2010, 11:36 am

I forgot to mention our registration fees! They are $900 per child in the pre-school elementary age.

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 11:49 am

shmoozer wrote:

OMG!!! who need 4 teachers per 20 kids!! is this a special needs school?!?!?

yes. its for the special needs of Jewish children whose parents want them to get a good education.

Two teachers at a time. Teacher (who is expected to have, or at least be working towards, M.Ed. or, in middle school, masters in subject taught) and assistant for chol. Teacher and assistant for limudei kodesh. Shockingly enough, also resource room and enrichment teachers, not to mention specialties like science, art, music and physical education.

Its a student:teacher ration of 10:1. NYC public schools, for example, have an average student:teacher ration of 15:1. Our kids are entitled to at *least* that, better if we can do it.

WriterMom

Mon, May 03 2010, 11:54 am

amother wrote:

shmoozer wrote:

OMG!!! who need 4 teachers per 20 kids!! is this a special needs school?!?!?

yes. its for the special needs of Jewish children whose parents want them to get a good education.

From the top, without the patronizing, please.

No research ever has shown that a ratio of less than 1:20 students makes any difference in a classroom setting. (One on one or two on one tutoring is a different beast.)

Are you under the impression that the great chachamim of the past were in classes with a Rav for every 5 kids? That Einstein and the Curies got one on one tutoring with PhDs in science as eight year olds?

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 12:12 pm

Lakewood, my DH learns in Kollel full time. At registration they asked us what DH does, and then, exactly where in BMG he sits, to verify that he is learning. They did not ask, but I could have told them about my 12-year old banged up car, no vacations, no cleaning help, etc....

They gave us the standard Kollel rate, which is 3500 for each elementary-age school child. Plus $100 registration fee. There are also various fees during the year but mostly nominal - projects, carnival day, etc...When my first child started school there was a first-time registration fee, I don't remember what it was, plus an application fee.

I also pay about 5K annually for daycare for my baby. I work full time.

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 12:22 pm

WriterMom wrote:

amother wrote:

shmoozer wrote:

OMG!!! who need 4 teachers per 20 kids!! is this a special needs school?!?!?

yes. its for the special needs of Jewish children whose parents want them to get a good education.

From the top. Don't you think that whoever suggested that any kid who functions best in a 10:1 ration must be a *special needs* kid is just a tad condescending?

And while we're at it, unfortunately, my kids aren't Albert Einstein. They need good teachers. If my daughter was Marie Curie, I'd worry a lot less about her education.

But please, show me the studies that indicate that moving from a 20:1 ration to a 10:1 ration does not help the achievement and educational level of kids. Particularly as the role of an asst teacher is to provide enrichment to kids who are advanced, and 1:1 help for kids who are confused.

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 12:42 pm

thank you for making me thankful for where we live. Basically our school has a policy that you do not have to pay more that 15% of your total income. That's the official line. Since we're in kodesh (meaning we have a low income) AND have a large family they basically told us we could pay whatever we felt we could manage. We try to be very honest about it and really send them the max that we can, but it's an absolute life saver. Also, they take what we give them and put it towards all the fees first, so according to their books we're even paying less, but they just want more kids, cause they get amazing funding from the state and the Federation per kid. We were told to send everyone down the our 3 yr. old even if we couldn't give them a penny for her!

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 12:45 pm

amother wrote:

where do you live?

mirror

Mon, May 03 2010, 6:20 pm

ditto.

tell me where you live so I can move there.