need lots of neshomos for moshiach to come? pls explain

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Need lots of neshomos for moshiach to come? pls explain

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happy2beme

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 2:05 pm

I've read many times here that Lubav believe in having as many children as possible because they want more neshamos here so that moshiach comes.
I never heard of this b4 reading it on imamother.
can someone please explain this to me? source?
you say that we need a lot of neshamos here for moshiach to come. why? where's this from? what's wrong with how many neshomos are here right now?
What's the connection between bringing down more neshamos & moshiach coming?
thank you.

hisorerus

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 2:23 pm

Offhand, there is a storage space for Neshamos called "Guf." When it's empty, Moshiach will come.

gryp

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 9:25 pm

there is a certain number of Neshamos that need to be born before Moshiach can come, so every baby that is born brings us closer to Moshiach!

isnt it great? this is a woman's very special own way of bringing Moshiach!

stem

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 9:33 pm

When mashiach comes, there'll be women who are still pregnant, right? Does that mean that those soon to be born babies are not part of the grand plan?

gryp

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 9:43 pm

I guess that's part of the question:
What is the point of the world once Moshiach has come?
the "Grand Plan" will already be completed, so why will we keep Torah and Mitzvos? Why will we continue to live on?

realeez

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 10:29 pm

another nice thought - Rabbi Krohn said in one of his tapes on Shidduchim that being involved in making a shidduch also gets the neshamos down and you can answer YES after 120 when asked "asakta bepirya vrivya" (were you INVOLVED in having children as opposed to did you have children)

shalhevet

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 3:56 am

GR wrote:

No, the exact opposite. When mashiach will come everyone will be able to sit and learn Torah and do the ratzon (will) of Hashem. Then we will be living as Hashem really wants us to. That is the Grand Plan.

I don't know how to say this nicely,(I am honestly not trying to bash) but only someone who thinks the purpose of us being here is to bring the mashiach could write this. Our purpose in life is not to bring Mashiach. It says this nowhere at all (except in Chabad handouts) Our purpose in life is to serve Hashem by keeping His Torah and mitzvos, and learning Torah.

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 8:39 am

They're the same thing!

shalhevet

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 8:44 am

It is not the same thing because we keep Torah and mitzvos to do what Hashem's ratzon (will) is. It is up to Hashem if He brings mashiach. What GR posted exactly shows what happens if you think the aim is to bring mashiach.

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 8:51 am

And Hashem's will IS to bring Moshiach. Not "if He wants to..."

What's wrong with what GR posted? Confused

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 9:13 am

mummyof6 wrote:

but only someone who thinks the purpose of us being here is to bring the mashiach could write this. [...] It says this nowhere at all (except in Chabad handouts)

Sanhedrin 98b is a Chabad handout?

"The world was created solely for Moshiach."

healthymama

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 9:53 am

Here is the quote from sanhedrin :

Quote:

Rab said: The world was created only on David's account .24 Samuel said: On Moses account;25 R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name? — The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.26 The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:27 e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.28 The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah.29 Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem ['the comforter'], that would relieve my soul,

There is more than one opinion on this matter. In fact, the previous line from the daf says as follows :

Quote:

This was said in opposition to R. Hillel, who maintained that there will be no Messiah for Israel, since they have already enjoyed him during the reign of Hezekiah.23

The purpose of creating the world is a much debated topic and no one answer is considered final.

TzenaRena

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 9:56 am

GR wrote:

Actually, the reason why the Chachomim and Neviim desired (nisavu)( hilchos melochim Ch. 12 halacha 4) the times of Moshiach is so that they could learn Torah and keep all the mitzvos b'shleimus, because in times of golus we can't keep all (the majority) of the 613 mitzvos, The accomplishment of Yemos HaMoshiach is "chozrin kol hamishpatim....makrivin korbonos ..." "all the laws will be restored as they were before, bringing korbons, observing Shmittos and Yovlos, as its entire mitzvah which is says in the Torah:" (RamBam, hilchos melochim Ch. 11 halacha 1). Likewise, the study of Torah will be complete, because of the ideal circumstances.

That is the Grand Plan: That "all Israel will be great scholars and and know the hidden matters and comprehend the knowledge of their Creator as (far as) the mind of a human can grasp as it says 'for the world will be filled with the knowledge of Hashem as water covers the sea (bed)." (siyum hilchos melochim and the "grand finale" of RamBam's entire Mishneh Torah)

Last edited by TzenaRena on Thu, Jun 29 2006, 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total

shalhevet

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 9:57 am

Crayon210 wrote:

And Hashem's will IS to bring Moshiach. Not "if He wants to..."

What's wrong with what GR posted? Confused

As I understood, GR is saying that if our purpose in life is to bring the mashiach then once he has come, what purpose is left?
I said that the situation is the opposite. Our purpose in life is to fulfill Hashem's will by doing Torah and mitzvos. Therefore when mashiach comes there will be no more war, sickness etc and everyone will be free to learn Torah. Which means we'll still be able to fulfill our purpose, only on a higher level.

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 9:58 am

I don't think she meant there won't be a purpose to the world anymore. She was continuing the conversation through asking questions.

happy2beme

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:04 am

ok, no one here answered anything close to my question.
Where is this idea from that all the neshamos have to be brought down for moshiach to come?
hisorerus answered:
Offhand, there is a storage space for Neshamos called "Guf." When it's empty, Moshiach will come.
what is the source for this?
thanks

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:07 am

LOL. I'm curious as well, as I've heard similar types of things, but never a source.

happy2beme

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:14 am

oh... I thought u would know crayon.
I just never heard of it b4 but ppl keep repeating it in bc forums...
just wondering.
u know when u hear something new & ur like What

huh, how come I never heard of such a thing?

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:17 am

Yes, definitely. :-D

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:22 am

From ohr.edu:

Quote:

The "guff" is a term the Talmud uses to refer to the repository of all unborn souls. Literally, the word "guff" means "body."

The Talmud says, "The Son of David (Mashiach) will not arrive until there's no more 'soul' in the 'body.' " This means that there are a certain number of souls in heaven waiting to be born. Until they are born, they wait in a heavenly repository called "the body." The Mashiach won't arrive until every single one of these souls has been born into the physical world.

This teaches that each person is important and has a unique role which only he, with his unique soul, can fulfill. Even a newborn baby brings the Mashiach closer simply by being born.

Sources:

Tractate Yevamot 62a
Tractate Avodah Zarah 5a

I don't have the time to look these two up inside now, but maybe I will later if I get a chance.

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