Question for those who are pro vaccination

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, May 13 2010, 1:45 pm

small bean wrote:

if s/o told me the reason she doesnt vaccinate - I'd give her $$ to vaccinate -even if it meant going into my savings. I think if everyone would vaccinate it would protect my children - I would find as much money as I need for that.

I give you a bracha that your children should remain healthy.
I give that bracha to all of us.
It's rosh chodesh sivan, mesugal for this type of bracha -- may our children grow up healthy because the One Above protects us, and may they grow up to be oseik b'torah u'mitzvos, and find the right zivug who will also be oseik b'torah u'mitzvos.

Cookies n Cream

Thu, May 13 2010, 1:49 pm

Inspired wrote:

MrsMom wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Cookies n Cream wrote:

I think that vaccines for serious life threatening illnesses (meningitis) are on the same level as medications for currect illness.

Can you explain how so? One is a guarantee of death the other is a chance.

I think that if the potential illness is not treatable and spreadable then it is just as important to prevent it as it is to treat a current illness.

For example, I don't do flu shots, but I do all recommended vaccinations (And do them 1 or 2 at a time) which is standard at my doctors.

I had expressed my concerns that I had there are dangers in vaccines, and she said to me "MrsMom, if you ever have to see a child suffering with Diphtheria, you would understand why it is necessary"

You misunderstood me.
The SAME WAY that I would give s/o money for a medication, I would give them money for vaccines.
Not vaccines before medications.
I guess you aren't a family member of someone who has a condition that without medication or treatment they would be dead in a few days time. I cannot comprehend how you can compare the 2.

small bean

Thu, May 13 2010, 1:52 pm

the chances increase of getting the disease if you don't and the ppl around you dont vaccinate.

if my dd has an asthamtic attack, I can say listen I'll do the nebulizer... or I can give her epi pen right away...

I can choose btw the two - (I'm talking about a really bad attack) neither of them is perfectly safe -the shot has a bigger chance of no long term issues.

the same thing, I can either say I'm not vaccinating bec I'm scared of the tiny chance that something will happen to her from the vaccination or you can vaccinate bec you are afraid that she can get the disease and most likely have a long term issue or death... therefor I can understand s/o being selfish and not vaccinating for mumps, flu, chickenpox and things like that - not that I agree, bec. if my child gets flu - it can be very dangerous for her - but I hear it.

MrsMom

Thu, May 13 2010, 1:53 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

MrsMom wrote:

Because we are talking about diseases that if caught (yes it is "only" a potential) the patient would be dead in a few days time.

So an IF outweighs a WILL. Safek outweighs a vadai. Halachically speaking, most rabbonim would not pasken like that.

Taking a shot does NOT guarantees crippling side affects. your is just as big of an if, if not bigger.

Also, halachically speaking, rabbis are not qualified to make medical decisions. but that is a whooole nother ballgame.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, May 13 2010, 1:55 pm

small bean wrote:

It doesn't sound like you understand it, if you consider it selfish for a mother to choose something in her child's best interests.

Cookies n Cream

Thu, May 13 2010, 1:55 pm

small bean wrote:

What do you understand?
The flu is one thing.
But there is a chance that mumps can cause sterilization, how can s/o take the Achrayus upon themselves. Skip their own kids-I'm talking about others.(I mean if s/o is not concerned in that sense about their own, I guess I can't expect them to be concerned about others...)

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, May 13 2010, 1:59 pm

MrsMom wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

MrsMom wrote:

Because we are talking about diseases that if caught (yes it is "only" a potential) the patient would be dead in a few days time.

So an IF outweighs a WILL. Safek outweighs a vadai. Halachically speaking, most rabbonim would not pasken like that.

That's not the comparison I'm making.
I'm addressing your response to Inspired.
She is talking about choosing between someone who has a disease that needs medication vs vaccinating someone on the chance that they would get the disease.

(Rabbis are qualified to pasken what is considered sakana, with the information they get from medical experts in terms of risk.)

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, May 13 2010, 2:04 pm

Cookies n Cream wrote:

small bean wrote:

1. The risk of sterilization is only a concern much later on, and is basically minute.
2. MMR currently cannot be separated.
3. For some, the MMR is very dangerous.
4. Therefore, the parents of those children are rightly protecting their children because the risk of the vaccine > risk of the disease.

Inspired

Thu, May 13 2010, 2:09 pm

MrsM you are saying that a child should be given a vaccine that could cause a lethal reaction to protect himself and others from the extremely small risk of becoming sterile from a case of the mumps?
That in addition to the suggestion that vaccinating for a possible disease is equal to treating a current deadly one.
I just cannot understand at all.

small bean

Thu, May 13 2010, 2:10 pm

tell me one rabbi who says you should not vaccinate for ANY disease? ( I don't mean flu and for cervical cancer...)

the chance of sterilization becasue by mumps is exremely rare, also, children under 9 can't really get this... I would never take the chance and vaccinate my children, but if you have this crazy idea in your head that vaccinating your kid is going to prob at best cuz them dissablities for their lifetime - then I hear not vaccinating for the really rare chances that they get mumps and side effects....

HY - I do understand, I think that ppl who don't vaccinate don't have their own childs best interest in mind - that is deffinitely selfish.

onlyme

Thu, May 13 2010, 2:11 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

MrsMom wrote:

Because we are talking about diseases that if caught (yes it is "only" a potential) the patient would be dead in a few days time.

So an IF outweighs a WILL. Safek outweighs a vadai. Halachically speaking, most rabbonim would not pasken like that.

From what I understand, Inspired is asking if vaccinations are as important as medications for diseases (and not more important than.) There's a big difference. I would pay for someone's vaccinations if they can't afford it, just like I would pay for someone's medical treatments if they can't afford it. BUT if I ever had to CHOOSE between the 2 scenarios, I would definitely choose treating a current illness over preventing a possible illness.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, May 13 2010, 2:17 pm

small bean wrote:

tell me one rabbi who says you should not vaccinate for ANY disease? ( I don't mean flu and for cervical cancer...)

That's not what I was addressing.

As I understand it, Inspired started this topic and included an example of limited funding available.
Either someone who needs medication now can receive it OR someone gets vaccinated to protect against a possible disease.
I believe halachically speaking, the vadai (sick person) takes precedence over the safek. I can't pasken, but I would think this is the way the Torah views danger.
That's the only reason I brought up halacha.

Quote:

the chance of sterilization becasue by mumps is exremely rare, also, children under 9 can't really get this... I would never take the chance and vaccinate my children, but if you have this crazy idea in your head that vaccinating your kid is going to prob at best cuz them dissablities for their lifetime - then I hear not vaccinating for the really rare chances that they get mumps and side effects....

Who said anything of the sort? (Not that I fully understand this paragraph.)

Quote:

HY - I do understand, I think that ppl who don't vaccinate don't have their own childs best interest in mind - that is deffinitely selfish.

Ok, so it's selfish for a mother to not give her child the MMR vaccine because he's deathly allergic to egg (a component of the vaccine; it affects some allergic kids, not all...) because other people are convinced their vaccinated kids will get deathly sick from her child not getting the vaccine?
If that's considered selfish, the other parents are just as selfish.
I hope you do realize there are people that vaccines (not as a group, but individually chosen ones) are contraindicated for.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, May 13 2010, 2:18 pm

onlyme wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

MrsMom wrote:

Because we are talking about diseases that if caught (yes it is "only" a potential) the patient would be dead in a few days time.

So an IF outweighs a WILL. Safek outweighs a vadai. Halachically speaking, most rabbonim would not pasken like that.

Right, that's what I think she was getting at.

Inspired

Thu, May 13 2010, 2:23 pm

small bean wrote:

I want to know - what risks your child has from getting MMR and why?

MMR vaccine is cultured in egg. When I had a baby with an egg allergy my pediatrician told me not to risk giving him the MMR. Today some do reccomend giving it ayway to those with severe egg allergies but to have the child admitted to the hospital first.

MMR should not be given to children who are severely immunocompromised (those with AIDS, on chemo or who have had a recent organ transplant).

Inspired

Thu, May 13 2010, 2:25 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

onlyme wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

MrsMom wrote:

Because we are talking about diseases that if caught (yes it is "only" a potential) the patient would be dead in a few days time.

So an IF outweighs a WILL. Safek outweighs a vadai. Halachically speaking, most rabbonim would not pasken like that.

Right, that's what I think she was getting at.

Yes, that was what I expected as a reasonable answer.