Need info/ideas re: Rechovot, Nof Ayalon, Carmiel

November

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 1:07 am

Hi, we are going to Israel this week on pilot trip #2 to check out schools and communities in Rechovot, NOf Ayalon, Carmiel and other areas. It is the final week of school for elem schools, and we'd like to be able to visit as many as we have time for. As for us, we are a couple in our young 40s with young children in elem school. We are coming from an out of town heimish community where the educators are yeshiva-ish and the atmosphere is very warm and tolerant. Pilot trip #1 was to Ramat Beit Shemesh. It was not a good fit for me since I'm a little left of chareidi (wear long jeans skirts, no socks, leave a tefach of hair out, use a computer, well educated) but I don't fit in with a more modern crowd either. My husband feels comfortable around Ner Yisrael yeshiva-ish type of people, although he does not wear a hat himself. He would like to keep our kids in a more chareidi type of school, but I would like one that is warm and accepting, and will not discourage our kids from acting responsibly and being able to make a parnassa. We are willing to move to a nice community as long it has proximity to a city where he can work as a lawyer in a firm. Does anyone have ideas for us? Thanks!

shalhevet

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 1:35 am

I am going to be blunt here - you will not get your kids into a chareidi school in Rehovot or anywhere else (unless you mean a kiruv school, which I doubt is what you want) if you dress as you describe.

Nof Ayalon is chardal/DL and not chareidi at all - so I don't know about there.

Carmiel is far from the centre - but a lawyer is not a computer programmer - maybe there are openings there or in Tzfat, but job-wise things happen in central Israel. I don't know anything about the chareidi or DL communities there.

chanchy123

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 1:56 am

shalhevet wrote:

But maybe what she describes as chareidi could actually be translated into Nof Ayalon type chardal in Israelese? It sort of sounds like it might. Ignore the title and that's more or less the type of people.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 2:24 am

shalhevet wrote:

Funny. Sorry, I have to laugh - there are never job openings in Tzfat. For anything.

Anyway, Carmiel is a nice, clean, modern place, but there are lots of Arabs. Not a large Dati community.
Moreshet is a wonderful dati yeshuv close by to Carmiel, highly educated, dati leumi, kind of chardalnik - most women cover their hair. Beautiful place.

I don't know much about Rechovot, although there are lots of religious people there, including charedi. I do know people who live in Mazkeret Batya, a quaint yeshuv nearby, with a growing and soon to be large DL, educated community.
Nof Ayalon is chardal, educated - that's all I know.

And do remember, it's the last week or two of school, most schools have a rather 'festive' atmosphere and you can't really gauge how things are throughout the year.

amother

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 2:33 am

believe it or not chareidi women r also well educated, and use a computer Wink

if u can change that in your post that would be great! I personally find it a little offensive, especially, when u r asking people who happen to be chareidi.

I think DL might be your place. as shalhevet said, forget chareidi, even if your kids, were allowed in the chareidi school system, they would soon, tell u to change your tznius.

catonmylap

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 2:56 am

You pretty much have to pick a side here - MO/DL/chardal or charedi.

It's the haskafa you want to match, even more than the dress thing...

Also, the MO/DL/chardal world will accept you pretty much no matter what. They aren't going to throw you out if you wear a sheitel or if your dh would wear a black hat, while it doesn't work that way the other way around.

I think Nof ayalon sounds like a place where you should look.

goldapoe

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 3:04 am

OP, you mentioned having looked around RBS A. Did you try Sheinfeld in Bet Shemesh? I have lived here for 6 years. I find it very warm and open minded. Many kids (mine included) go to school in RBS A (I think Rappaport would suit you as you would not get accepted to Magen Avot if you wear denim skirts). Rabbi David's shul (BMTL) is considered "Chardal". There are all kinds there. Women: sheitles/falls/mitpatchot on Shabbos. Men: Suits/Hats/no jacket/some sandals. What's nicest is the acceptance of all by all.

Unfortunately, here in Israel the clear lines of haskafa are very defining. I don't like it at all but I can't change what it is. I come from an amazing US community where we were all accepting of each other. Every Rav from every Orthodox shul sat together and formed our Vaad. All respected each other no matter which direction their "wings" went-right or left!

PM me if you have questions about Sheinfeld.

amother

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 5:18 am

Unfortunately, there aren't very many communities here for an open-minded Yeshivish type. We had a very difficult time finding a place where we fit in. I suggest that if you want to stay more to the right frumkeit-wise (and it sounds like this is at least important to your DH), consider making some changes to fit in. Can you cover your hair fully? Can you wear socks/stockings?

In my case, it's me who is vying for a frummer environment and DH is willing to make some superficial changes (even though he is very frum and machmir in general) so that we'll fit in need be.

It's hard. Often you find olim sacrificing frumkeit for choosing a non-chareidi environment for the sake of fitting in. I couldn't see living a lower religious standard davka because I was living in E"Y.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 6:53 am

amother wrote:

Chardal is not a lower relgious standard, and if the op decides to go in that direction she will not be 'sacrificing frumkeit'.

amother

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 7:34 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

amother wrote:

Chardal is not a lower relgious standard, and if the op decides to go in that direction she will not be 'sacrificing frumkeit'.

Right, but what do you mean by chardal? If you aren't really the zionist type, it's hard to suddenly decide that you're "chardal". It might be easier for OP to wear socks than to hang out a flag on Yom Haatzmaut. If you're "chardal" you still may find yourself having to choose between DL and Chareidi in terms of schools, unless you're living in a place like Nof Ayalon, with a specific hashkafa which doesn't sound like what OP's DH wants.

My previous post was referring to the fact that the OP mentioned RBS A wasn't right for her because she wears denim skirts and no socks... But why not ditch the denim if it means finding a nice community? It's less of a compromise in ideals than starting to wave a flag when you aren't really into that sort of thing.

OP, what I'm trying to say is, you should consider that it will help your children and yourselves a lot if you do your best to fit into the community that most accurately represents the ideals of you and your DH.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 8:57 am

You don't need to fly a flag on Yom Haatzmaut in order to be chardal. In fact, you can remain exactly as you are, and your dh can wear a black kippa, and you still can belong to a chardal community and chardal schools. There is not problem, as long as you aren't anti-zionist (at least not openly).
Some chardal communities are very homogeneous but others are very diverse, and you would fit right in. I actually think it's much easier than trying to fit charedi restrictions. However, it wouldn't get you into charedi schools.

Seraph

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 9:04 am

Kochav Yaakov is a great community with a decent amount of people that match your description. I'm not sure about schooling- the school in KY isn't chareidi-ish, but a lot of locals send to Tel tzion to the chareidi schools, and the chabad school accepts people even if they don't cover everything and don't dress all chareidi. I think its a good option for you- I can pm you some names of people here who can tell you more if you're interested.

amother

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 11:14 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

What are some of the chardal communities and schools that you're talking about?

November

Sun, Jun 20 2010, 6:45 pm

OP here: All of these responses are sooooo helpful! Thank you to all of you!!
I certainly did not mean to imply that charedi women are not educated, and don't use computers. I was really just trying to be honest about myself and give people a good description of myself.
Funny that someone mentioned Kochav Yaakov, since we did go visit there on Pilot trip #1. We liked the community, or what we saw of it, but my husband did not like the location and could not see himself living there.
We did not look at Sheinfeld mainly because we could not commit to either school in RBS. We did see Rappaport, and I liked it and the kids seemed really cute and happy, but we heard some mixed reviews about the greater environment especially as the kids get older.
I was sort of hoping that the farther we got from more concentrated areas such as RBS, the more "open" the Bais Yaakov systems would be- more accepting of different hashkafas or small variations. I've been getting some clear signs that this might not be the case. I'm not sure what to do with that info right now.
Again, thanks to everyone for taking the time and trouble to respond.

shalhevet

Mon, Jun 21 2010, 12:23 am

November wrote:

I was sort of hoping that the farther we got from more concentrated areas such as RBS, the more "open" the Bais Yaakov systems would be- more accepting of different hashkafas or small variations. I've been getting some clear signs that this might not be the case. I'm not sure what to do with that info right now.
Again, thanks to everyone for taking the time and trouble to respond.

You are right - chareidi communities in more mixed towns like Rechovot, Petach Tikva, Netanya etc are more tolerant of small variations - but I'm afraid how you describe how you dress isn't considered a 'small variation' in chareidi communities, even those outside Yerushalayim/ BB/ KS/ BS etc. You will be 'boxed' as DL by dressing that way. The being more tolerant means you don't need great yichus - you will be accepted if you are BT or even, horrors, American Wink

, or if your dh works etc.

I am not trying to tell you what to do, I am honestly trying to help you - if you want to be accepted as chareidi and/or send your children to chareidi institutions you will have to dress in a way acceptable in the chareidi community - and that means covering all your hair and wearing socks, and usually not wearing denim.

chanchy123

Mon, Jun 21 2010, 12:32 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Totally agree.

chanchy123

Mon, Jun 21 2010, 12:39 am

November wrote:

Honestly, it just doesn't sound like you're really chareidi. Try to let go of the title and list your criteria.
In Israel BY is chareidi and it caters to chareidi families and their children.
It doesn't sound like you want an Israeli BY for your children. It sounds like other schools might actually be better options for you. Perhaps in America they would be considered "chareidi" or BYish but in Israel they're called something else.
I think Moreshet that someone here suggested may be a good option up north. Nof Ayaylon, Rechovot, Petach Tikva - are all good options.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Jun 21 2010, 1:27 am

If you do decide to leave the 'charedi' label for now and check out strict dati leumi crowds (which is what chardal is) - you've got a lot more options. And again, most chardal or dl people I know don't go around waving flags all the time. It's really not the mindset, unless you choose a very nationalistic yeshuv.

Personally, I'd probably first look for areas near large places of employment. Or for a city with a train station, which gives you a lot of freedom in where to commute.
Do you prefer a large city or small yeshuv? Is having a private home with yard important to you? What is your budget? These are all crucial factors in advising you on options.