Purpose of Creation - Understanding Sin and Punishment

Motek

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 12:57 pm

A shliach once related a story about a Lubavitcher girl who went to a B.Yaakov school and had a teacher who asked the class:

"What is the whole purpose of our Torah and Mitzvos?"

The Lubavitcher girl raised her hand and said "To bring about the Geulah!"

The teacher said "No, let me rephrase my question then. What was the world created for?"

The girl raised her hand again "For Moshiach?"

"No" said the teacher.

The shliach then asked the girl, "So what was the answer to her questions?"

"I don't know" responded the girl "but it wasn't Moshiach or Geulah."

***
In other words, the question is, why do we learn Torah and do mitzvos? We do them because Hashem said so, and we serve Him, but what purpose do they serve?

The Chassidic approach is that we do mitzvos and serve Hashem so that we can accomplish what He wanted from the beginning-A place for Him in the lower worlds... Geula!

The non-Chassidic approach is more of do it because you have to (my employer/employee mashal posted elsewhere). They look at Moshiach as if it is a reward, and not as if it's what Hashem wants and it is something we accomplish through our actions.

The non-Chassidic focus is on be good, so you will get a great reward in Olam Haba.... Rather than a focus on the here and now.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 1:07 pm

Motek, I just love how you make chasidim look holier.

All of the Jews are looking towards the geula & Olam HaBa, and (should) strive to do mitzvos out of love to H'.

And, you did not finish the conversation of the girl & the teacher.
What did the teacher answer?

Tefila

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 1:10 pm

Quote:

The Chassidic approach is that we do mitzvos and serve Hashem so that we can accomplish what He wanted from the beginning-A place for Him in the lower worlds... Geula!

The non-Chassidic approach is more of do it because you have to (my employer/employee mashal posted elsewhere). They look at Moshiach as if it is a reward, and not as if it's what Hashem wants and it is something we accomplish through our actions.

Chassidus also teaches the aspect of serving G-D w/h joy besimcha and how the world was created just for me and therefore I can make a huge difference in changing the world for good etc.

Whereas the non chassidic approach concentrates on mussar, rebuke and who are we just dust of the earth, walk in fear every second of your life remember b/4 who you stand!

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 1:25 pm

so it looks like it was taken out of context.

Dear Motek, it greatly annoys me that you often write about hasidus as apposed to not hasidus, making hasidim look holier.

It's great to be proud of your derech, but not by putting others down.

Quote:

Chassidus also teaches the aspect of serving G-D w/h joy besimcha and how the world was created just for me and therefore I can make a huge difference in changing the world for good etc.

this is "Kol Yisroel arevim ze la ze", which litvaks learn too, may be in different words

Quote:

Whereas the non chassidic approach concentrates on mussar, rebuke and who are we just dust of the earth, walk in fear every second of your life remember b/4 who you stand!

I've seen plently people in all walks of life who need to keep this in mind,
especially when Purim/ Simchas Torah come around.

No need to put one against the other.

Motek

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 1:31 pm

Dear ForeverYoung,

the Baal Shem Tov came to the world with a message for all Jews

when he asked Moshiach when he is coming, Moshiach told the Baal Shem Tov, when your wellsprings spread forth

I will continue to post the Chassidic understanding of Judaism and rather than be annoyed, perhaps you can open yourself to appreciating it.

as discussed already in the Chassidic Woman thread, Chasidus is not "an approach" but a G-dly revelation that was part of the giving of the Torah on Sinai. Surely something to seriously consider.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 1:35 pm

Quote:

I will continue to post the Chassidic understanding of Judaism and rather than be annoyed, perhaps you can open yourself to appreciating it.

be my guest.

just stop putting down non-chasidim, pls

gryp

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 1:42 pm

FY- which sentences that Motek posted had to do with Chasidim being holier?

I think its hard to understand unless you are very familiar with Chasidim and non-Chasidim the above story. of course non-Chasidim believe in Moshiach but it is different when the entire emphasis if everything you do and learn is for Moshiach. it matters where the emphasis lies, and thats hard to see for someone who is not very familiar with Chasidim and Chassidus.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 2:10 pm

fine with me, but why appose one to the other?

And why quote this particular example - don't tell me the teacher told the kids no, you're wrong & didn't provide an answer. May be the student didn't get it, but why bring an example which puts non-chasidim in a bad light?

Considering that we want everybody to feel welcomed to this forum?

gryp

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 4:26 pm

of course, that can happen in any school, but that wasnt the point of the story. the point was that, as you can tell, the lubavitcher girl was very focused on Moshiach, and the beis yaakov crowd didnt see it exactly the same way. not that they didnt believe in Moshiach, but that wasnt the answer for them as to why the world was created.

its really just a point of comparison, no oppostion with hard feelings on either side.

Rivka

Thu, Mar 10 2005, 1:48 am

Have to agree with FY there. Sorry if anyone on this forum had said anything like this about a not lubavitch student in a Lubavitch school they would have been condemned and verbally stoned for saying such things and then written off as an anti-Lubavitch. All very nice little story, but it doesn't explain anything and non Lubavitch don't all dwell in the negative. They also believe in the positive and being happy, some people like to focus on mussar while others do not. It's all preference really. I think a bit of mussar is good.

sarahd

Thu, Mar 10 2005, 5:15 am

RG wrote:

are you saying that Bais Yaakov is put in a bad light because the student didnt receive an answer?

The student must have received an answer, because unless the teacher was crazy, she wouldn't have asked such a question without having an answer ready to give. The student obviously wasn't listening to the answer, because if it didn't involve Moshiach or Geula, then she wasn't interested anymore - or, since the teacher didn't accept her answer, she tuned out.

Anybody who reads the story unbiasedly will come to this conclusion, so no, it doesn't put BY in a bad light. If you ask me, it puts a bad light on those who try to use this story to say there's something wrong with BY's education of ikrei hashkafa.

gryp

Thu, Mar 10 2005, 6:45 am

I see your point, I would also feel defensive if someone took an obscure story from somewhere about my school. but I still didnt think that was the point. the point was just to compare the teacher's questions and answers to the student's.

Tefila

Thu, Mar 10 2005, 10:24 am

Quote:

brought up a point that there are two hashkafos.

How come whenever we talk about each others hashkafas someone or two gets on the defensive, but w/h other topics we don't. Confused

Noone is attacking anyone yet, since then we would be attacking Great gedolim c"v such as the Chofetz Chaim etc.
We are just showing 2 diff ways of looking out of the same window

yehudis

Thu, Mar 10 2005, 2:02 pm

Here's a source studied by non-chassidim:

Mesillas Yesharim, ch. 1 (I don't have a good translation, so this is just my summary):

A human being was created in order to enjoy G-d and and shine in His Presence, because this is the only true pleasure. And the place for this pleasure in truth is the World to Come because it was created for this purpose. But the way to reach this desired destination is through this world... What brings us to this goal are the mitzvos which Hashem gave us. And it is only in this wolrd that we are able to perform them.[/quote]