Purpose of Creation - Understanding Sin and Punishment

gryp

Tue, Mar 15 2005, 4:05 pm

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which incidentally you have not answered, is not whether x is a punishment for y.

many times I have answered and you agreed as well, that we dont know what is a punishment for what. I will add to it and say again that we dont know it is a punishment at all. there is no Navi today to tell us this.

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do you believe that we get punished?

of course.

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Do our aveiros get punished in this world?

maybe yes, how am I supposed to know? I am not Hashem or a Navi. it is not for me to judge.

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Are some things that happen to us punishments or corrective actions or whatever you want to call it?

maybe yes, how am I supposed to know? I am not Hashem or a Navi. it is not for me to judge.

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if u believe in the 13 principles, you will believe that Hashem punishes our aveiros

you quoted the Rambam nicely. where does he say that Hashem punishes us in THIS world for our aveiros? that is not part of your quote. im sure it exists somewhere, but please dont use the Rambam to prove your heresy line. I am sure he doesnt want to be involved. if you find a quote from somewhere to prove that we get bad things that happen to us we should accept as punishments, I will be happy to accept it.

Last edited by gryp on Tue, Mar 15 2005, 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Mar 15 2005, 4:09 pm

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if Bnei Yisroel would have put their trust in Hashem from the beginning, Hashem would have done miracles for them.

Just trust is not enough, this is, lehavdil, what christians say - believe in Yoshka & he will take care of you. One needs to add mitzvos & teshuva,

Coudl you pls clarify this?

And won't you say that the fact that H' doesn't do miracles for us is a punishment for not trusting Him enough?

----------------------------------------------------------
Just got through your long post, RG

Here is a quote:

Quote:

It is only in such a world, where only the trained eye will perceive the Creator, that free choice may be given to man; hence it is only in such a world that reward and punishment are warranted. In the "higher" worlds, by contrast, G-d's Presence is so indisputably manifest that the angels who inhabit the Worlds of Beriah and Yetzirah have no free choice.

this says directly that there is reward & punishment
-------------------------

By the way, RG, how does hasidus explain the principl # 11??

Last edited by ForeverYoung on Sun, Apr 03 2005, 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

gryp

Tue, Mar 15 2005, 4:38 pm

Quote:

Just trust is not enough. One needs to add mitzvos & teshuva

you are being a meforash on my words Smile

. I never meant to insinuate that trust is enough, obviously you have to keep Torah and mitzvos. but you cant keep Torah and mitzvos and not trust either. Confused

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this says directly that there is reward & punishment

somewhere along the line you picked up that I said theres no such things as punishments. I wonder where that misunderstanding took place, especially when I have said many more times that of course there is such thing as reward and punishment.

roza

Tue, Mar 15 2005, 8:10 pm

RG wrote:

Quote:

Do our aveiros get punished in this world?

maybe yes, how am I supposed to know? I am not Hashem or a Navi. it is not for me to judge.

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Are some things that happen to us punishments or corrective actions or whatever you want to call it?

maybe yes, how am I supposed to know?
......
where does he say that Hashem punishes us in THIS world for our aveiros? ...... if you find a quote from somewhere to prove that we get bad things that happen to us we should accept as punishments...

I am not 1stimer, but allow me to respond to above, in order to prevent further misunderstanding of Chabad philosophy.

this is from Tanya, Igeret HaTeshuva , Chapter 12:

Quote:

וטעם השמחה ביסורי הגוף

The reason for joy1 in the suffering of the body

לפי שהיא טובה גדולה ועצומה לנפש החוטאת

is that it is a great and potent2 favor for the sinning soul,

למרקה בעולם הזה

to cleanse it in This World,3

ולהצילה מהמירוק בגיהנם

and to spare it from being scoured in Gehinnom.4

(בפרט בדורותינו אלה

(5This is particularly true in these generations of ours,

שאין ביכולת להתענות כפי מספר כל הצומות שבתיקוני תשובה מהאריז"ל

when one cannot undertake all the fasts prescribed in the penances of the AriZal, as mentioned earlier on in chapter 3,

הצריכות למירוק הנפש, להצילה ממירוק בגיהנם)

fasts imperative for the cleansing of the soul, to rescue it from the cleansing of Gehinnom.)

וכמו שכתוב הרמב"ן ז"ל בהקדמה לפירוש לאיוב, שאפילו יסורים של איוב ע' שנה, אין להן ערך כלל ליסורי הנפש שעה אחת בגיהנם

As Nachmanides writes, in the Introduction to his Commentary on Job, that even the sufferings of Job for seventy years bear absolutely no comparison to the suffering of a soul for even one hour in Gehinnom,

כי אש אחד מששים וכו'

for6 “[physical] fire is but one sixtieth [of the fire of Gehinnom].”

אלא לפי שעולם הזה חסד יבנה

It is only that this7 “world is built by kindness,”

וביסורין קלין בעולם הזה, ניצול מדינים קשים של עולם הבא

for which reason through mild suffering in This World one is saved from severe judgments in the Coming World.

כמשל הילוך והעתקת הצל בארץ טפח

This is analogous to the movement of a shadow on earth of a handsbreadth,

לפי הילוך גלגל השמש ברקיע אלפים מילין וכו'

which equals the sun's movement in the heaven of thousands of miles…

I.e., the sun's movement of thousands of miles causes a corresponding movement of but a few inches of shadow].

ויתר על כן לאין קץ הוא בנמשל

Infinitely more so is this true in the parallel,

בבחינת השתלשלות העולמות מרום המעלות עד עולם הזה הגשמי

in the descent of the worlds from level to level, from the most exalted heights until this physical world.

The analogy may be understood as follows. Any event that transpires in this world results from a parallel but far more ethereal event that “previously” took place in the spiritually exalted worlds. Thus, the effect of an event in this physical world is much greater in those lofty worlds.

וכנודע ממה שכתוב בזהר הקדוש, מענין עליות עולמות העליונים

We see this in the teachings of the Zohar on the elevation of the higher worlds

באתערותא דלתתא, בהקרבת עוף אחד בן יונה או תור על גבי המזבח, או קומץ מנחה

as a result of the spiritual arousal initiated by man below through his offering of one fowl, a dove or pigeon, or a handful of meal, on the altar.

The Zohar teaches that offering but one such representative creature from the animal world or but one such representative item from the vegetative world, elevates all the spiritual realms.

וכן הוא בכל המצות מעשיות, כנודע מהאריז"ל

Such are the effects of all the commandments requiring practical performance, as is known from the AriZal.

Mitzvot performed in this world with physical objects, such as tzitzit made of wool or the passages of the tefillin written on parchment, set up far-reaching reverberations in the exalted spiritual worlds.

וזה שאמרו רז"ל על פסוק: והתקדשתם והייתם קדושים

This too is our Sages' comment8 on the verse,9 “Sanctify yourselves and you shall be holy” —

אדם מקדש עצמו מעט מלמטה, מקדשין אותו הרבה מלמעלה וכו'

“Man sanctifies himself [only] a little I.e.,” comments the Rebbe, ‘in quantity’ below I.e.,“ comments the Rebbe, ‘in quality’, and he becomes sanctified in great measure from Above…”

(וכמו שכתוב לעיל בענין אשר קדשנו במצותיו וכו' בחינת סובב כל עלמין וכו')

(10It was thus noted above11 in reference to the phrase, “Who sanctified us with His commandments…,” [that Israel's sanctification through mitzvot is bound up with the Infinite life- force that] encompasses and transcends all worlds…)

Thus, the physical performance of a Divine commandment in this world, draws down upon the individual holiness not only from the most lofty spiritual worlds, but also from the degree of G‑dliness that transcends worlds.

וככה ממש הוא בענין שכר ועונש

Precisely so is it in reference to reward and punishment.

The reward for the performance of a mitzvah infinitely surpasses the physical deed itself; the punishment as well, suffered by an individual in this world for his sins, substitutes for a far greater measure of punishment that the person would have undergone had it been meted out in the Coming World.

כמאמר רז"ל: שכר מצוה מצוה וכו'

As our Sages say,12 “The reward of a mitzvah is the mitzvah…”;

[I.e., the reward is the spiritual illumination that is drawn down through the fulfillment of the mitzvah itself],

וכמו שכתוב במקום אחר

as discussed elsewhere.

Since it has just been explained that the performance of a mitzvah draws down as a reward Divine illumination that utterly transcends all worlds, it follows that the reward for the mitzvah in the loftier spiritual worlds is infinitely higher than the physical action performed here below.

ודעת לנבון נקל

This knowledge is elementary to the discerning,

ומשכיל על דבר ימצא טוב

and those with intelligence in this matter will discover good.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Mar 15 2005, 8:17 pm

wow, Roza, thank you so much for your time!!!

gryp

Tue, Mar 15 2005, 10:09 pm

Roza, yisurim, fasting, etc. is what a man can bring on himself. it is very different than assuming the tsunami was for lashan hara!
as I said before, a man can even daven for Hashem to give him Yisurim.
nowadays we dont put extra yisurim on ourselves because we are a weak generation. instead we can give a certain amount of tzedaka to equal a fast.

roza

Tue, Mar 15 2005, 11:18 pm

RG wrote:

it's not only isurim, but also about what comes from Above:

Quote:

וככה ממש הוא בענין שכר ועונש

check lessons on Tanya.

my post was in reply to your statement about punishments in this world.

I don't know what tzunami was for, but if there is an opinion, that it was for loshon horah , so let it (this opinion) be; if someone will speak less loshon horah as a result, then we all will benefit.

Tefila

Tue, Mar 15 2005, 11:49 pm

The Talmud states, simply and succinctly, "I was created to serve my Creator." The moralistic-oriented works of Mussar describe the purpose of life as the refinement of one's character traits. The Zohar says that G-d created us "in order that His creations should know Him." Master Kabbalist
Rabbi Isaac Luria offered the following reason for creation:

G-d is the essence of good, and the nature of good is to bestow goodness. But goodness cannot be bestowed when there is no one to receive it. To this end, G-d created our world—so that there should be recipients of His goodness.

Chassidic teaching explains that these reasons, as well as the reasons given by other kabbalistic and philosophical works, are but the various faces of a singular divine desire for creation, as expressed in the various "worlds" or realms of G-d's creation. Chassidism also offers its own formulation of this divine desire: that we "Make a home for G-d in the material world."

Note:From an article someone emailed me and what I posted in the philosophising thread!

hadasa

Wed, Mar 16 2005, 2:58 am

RG - The fact remains that Haman's decree was a direct consequence of the Jews' having partaken of Achashveirosh's feast (which is written in the Medrash, I believe) and the Jews' response was to do Teshuvah. And the Rebbe says that this is the correct response any time a Tzarah befalls the Jews.

I agree with you that Chabad Chassidus's view of "punishment" is very different from the view without Chassidus, but I think the difference is in a much deeper and finer point than you make it out to be.

gryp

Wed, Mar 16 2005, 9:27 am

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it's not only isurim, but also about what comes from Above:

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וככה ממש הוא בענין שכר ועונש

I understand that, but that perek of Tanya is mainly talking about yisurim people bring on themselves. if you read my reply to a question about do punishments happen in this world for aveiros, my answer is: maybe yes, I dont know, im not Hashem or a Navi.

I don't know what tzunami was for, but if there is an opinion, that it was for loshon horah , so let it (this opinion) be; if someone will speak less loshon horah as a result, then we all will benefit.

if people want to look at it as a wakeup call, like we were talking a few pages ago, there is nothing wrong with that. we are not talking about wakeup calls. we are talking about saying the tsunami/9-11/the holocaust is a punishment. it is very different.

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hadasa, as ive written many times, things that happen in Tanach are very different than things that happen today. we have psukim in Tanach or a Navi that told us: "because you did this, this happened." these days we dont have a Navi. we dont have Hashems voice telling us this is for that, and the fact is like in the story you brought down about the 2 year old who passed away, not all bad things are punishments, it could be just the way Hashem is working things out.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 16 2005, 11:14 am

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it is very different than assuming the tsunami was for lashan hara!

nobody said that.
the ads said that Tzunami is LIKE lashon hara

RG, you ask:

Quote:

where does he say that Hashem punishes us in THIS world for our aveiros? ...... if you find a quote from somewhere to prove that we get bad things that happen to us we should accept as punishments...

and Roza answeres from Taniya:

Quote:

The reason for joy1 in the suffering of the body

לפי שהיא טובה גדולה ועצומה לנפש החוטאת

is that it is a great and potent2 favor for the sinning soul,

למרקה בעולם הזה

to cleanse it in This World,3

ולהצילה מהמירוק בגיהנם

and to spare it from being scoured in Gehinnom.

are u arguing with the Taniya, a Lubavich sefer?

Also, why are you so against the concept of punishment?

gryp

Wed, Mar 16 2005, 11:34 am

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it is very different than assuming the tsunami was for lashan hara!

Quote:

nobody said that.
the adds said that Tzunami is LIKE lashon hara

FY- a few pages back you told me that the Holocaust, 9-11, and similar incidents are punishments. now you say nobody said that.

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RG, you ask:

Quote:

where does he say that Hashem punishes us in THIS world for our aveiros? ...... if you find a quote from somewhere to prove that we get bad things that happen to us we should accept as punishments...

and Roza answeres from Taniya:

Quote:

The reason for joy1 in the suffering of the body
לפי שהיא טובה גדולה ועצומה לנפש החוטאת
is that it is a great and potent2 favor for the sinning soul,
למרקה בעולם הזה
to cleanse it in This World,3
ולהצילה מהמירוק בגיהנם
and to spare it from being scoured in Gehinnom.

Quote:

are u arguing with the Taniya, a Lubavich sefer?

FY- I have learned this chapter in depth, although its been a few years from then, and this is talking about yisurim that one either takes upon himself or he can daven for to be on a higher level. if you argue that afterwards it says that this is also like the suffering in the world, then I accept that explanation but that was not how I learned it.

Also, why are you so against the concept of punishment?[/quote]
we are going in circles here- I am not against the concept of punishment. I am not against using a bad event as a wakeup call to do teshuva, I am not even against saying "this bad thing happened to me, it could be a punishment for me because I did a certain aveirah.

I am against saying: "this terrible thing that happened in the world is a punishment for the yidden because we have so many aveiros!" "this terrible thing that happened in the world is because we speak a lot of Lashan Hara!" "this terrible thing that happened in the world is definitely a punishment!" because none of us have the ability to speak to Hashem and find out the real reason He does things, none of us should have such arrogance to look across the world at an individual and say: "look what he did and look he was punished for it!"

I heard yesterday part of a nice sicha where the Rebbe says, "How come when Pirkei Avos describes the passing down of the Torah it starts with "Moshe kibel Torah miSinai?" because Moshe and Sinai teach us something very important! in order to accept the Torah you have to be like Moshe: he was an anav (humble person) mikol adam- from every single person- even the ones on the lowest level! and we know about Sinai that it was chosen for the same reason- it was humble.

How can we talk about another Yid as if we know exactly what he did wrong and exactly how he was punished. (like the motorcycle story) where does this arrogance come from that "I know why..." its astounding.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 16 2005, 12:24 pm

sircles on the sand go round, round, round...

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where does this arrogance come from that "I know why..." its astounding.

I said it's a punishment, but I also said we do not know for what.

hadasa

Wed, Mar 16 2005, 12:41 pm

Quote:

hadasa, as ive written many times, things that happen in Tanach are very different than things that happen today.

RG - The Rebbe said that this a Horaah to us how we should act in times of trouble. The Baal Shem Tov said that if we read the Megilah thinking that it is just a story that happened long ago, that has no bearing on our times, we have not fulfilled the Mitzvah.

Motek

Tue, Mar 29 2005, 8:13 am

yehudis wrote:

The whole idea of doing mitzvos in order to bring Mashiach appeared only with the birth of the chassidic movement. Before that, nobody thought of it as the reason.

sarahd wrote:

This idea of doing mitzvos to bring Moshiach I have never heard from any chassidim except Lubavitcher. Are you sure this is a chassidish idea? I asked my husband and he had also never heard about it.

back to the earlier discussion -

As my husband explained to me, doing mitzvos to bring the Geula preceded the Chasidic movement and was kabbalistic. Every l’sheim yichud (uniting Kudsha Brich Hu with the Shechina) expressed this idea. Those who wished to join Ramchal’s inner circle had to sign that they forwent the merits of their mitzvos in this world and the next, and served Hashem solely to achieve the Geula!

Motek

Tue, Mar 29 2005, 7:01 pm

and a source for the original topic - purpose of creation - Rashi on the first pasuk in Bereishis says the world was created for Torah and for Yisrael, meaning, for Yisrael to do mitzvos and bring about a revelation of Elokus in the world, I.e. Geula

sarahd

Wed, Mar 30 2005, 2:55 am

That's your interpretation of Rashi. Rashi doesn't say that. I'm not saying it may not be true, but please don't put words in Rashi's mouth.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 30 2005, 11:21 am

Something happend to us on Purim.
B'H everything is fine.
I think I know what H' was trying to tell me.
So should I take it as a punishment and act accordingly or say "Oh, well, I don't know, let me just carry on"?

I took it as a punishment/ warning.
I'm working on appropriate changes.
Am I doing a wrong thing?

Tefila

Wed, Mar 30 2005, 11:42 am

Quote:

I think I know what H' was trying to tell me.
So should I take it as a punishment and act accordingly or say "Oh, well, I don't know, let me just carry on"?

Anny oh oops fy keep mixing you 2 up, Rolling Eyes

You yourself can relize when something happens that maybe you should try to better yourself b/c thats how I view things that happend to us.
BUT NO WAY can someone tell someone else that. B/c they really don't know Hashems plans.
And people who have r"l one sorrow after another one has to admit Hashem has his reasons and it may not even have been a warning or punishment, but a kapora or indeed a blessing in disguise!!!!!!!

Great leaders have suffered too Moshe Rabbeinu conc not being truly raised by his mother, not entering Eretz Yisroel etc
Yaakov oveinu w/h his brother Aisav. And much later in history The Altar Rebbe being jailed by the kgb in Russia.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe conc having no children and being sick for awhile! The chofetz Chaim and the list goes on.

You believe it's something they did that they are being punished [b]are we so arrogant to presume we control our destiny[/b].
We try our best and daven to Hashem that He should not cause us so much suffering b/c we mortals can't handle it.

Last edited by Tefila on Wed, Mar 30 2005, 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 30 2005, 11:47 am

I am not arguing with that.

I just do not understand why people insist that bad things are not punishments, that they JUST happen.

PS Anny is rarely here, so by using FY you have much less chances to err.