Would YOU do this if you had the money?

sushilover

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 10:10 am

amother wrote:

I am really frustrated. My husband and I are looking for a house as we are getting too small for our apartment. We are also sick of flushing money down the toilet towards rent. We are very frustrated as it has been very difficult to find a house. We live in a community where the frum Jews live in a very concentrated area. We have been looking for houses, but it seems that almost everything decent has been bought by other frum Jews looking to make a profit on other frum Jews. They usually fix up the homes a bit, but are waiting to sell them until the economy turns around and they can make money on it. I know they have the right to do so, but it just seems like its not mentchlich. They are taking away the opportunity from young families looking to settle down. Why can't they invest in other neighborhoods? I am obviously very biased here. Am I being completely irrational? If you had the money would you invest in homes in frum neighborhoods or would you see something wrong with it?

It has always been my dream that when I become super rich, I'll build some apartment buildings and complexes in Brooklyn with affordable rent for frum families. I even started drawing the blueprints during an especially boring college class...!

Grandmama

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 10:17 am

louche wrote:

OP, a homeowner has bought a house and expects to make a profit selling it. That's his right. The person who sold it to him made a profit, too. I feel your pain, but be honest. If you had a car that you knew you could sell for $10k, would you sell it for $3k just because a frum young family wanted it?

Yes, frum people live in a concentrated area, usually with the shul at the epicenter. You have several choices: if you can afford to buy a house three blocks from shul, you do. If you cannot, you resign yourself to buying a house on the fringes of the frum area, maybe a half mile or a mile from the shul. Maybe even--gasp!!--OUTSIDE THE ERUV---for half the price. It's not Timbuktu; you are still near Jewish businesses and schools, just a little less conveninet.

And you know what happens next? Other young frum families who also cannot afford to live three blocks from shul move into your block, because there is a;ready a frum family (yours) there. Eventually someoen starts holding a breakaway minyan in their basement; eventually the eruv is expanded to include your section, and eventually the people on your side of Main Street build their own shul. And the property values rise, and eventually YOU will be selling your house in the now-very desirable section of town, and believe me, you'll be holding out for the highest price you can get. Not slashing your price to make it possible for a nice young family to live three blocks from shul.

What about if I bought several houses, and values have gone way down, and I am losing money because the prices have come down in a certain frum area? Real estate investments are risky, and while sometimes and in some places it is easy and common to "flip", at certain times, this can stop, and the investor is left holding a property which he cannot afford to sell at a loss.
Real estate is a risky business, like any other investment, and has its ups and downs.

In my frum neighborhood it is very common to have a din torah with almost every house bought/sold.
The next door neighbor always has first right to buy,and whether he wants to buy or not, whether he needs it or not, he will insist of being the "first buyer" so that he can flip it to the real buyer and make some really easy money. The din torah arises when there are a few "next door neighbors" fighting over a right to a property. (or the right to make a few quick bucks)
This happens all the time, because halachically the next door neighbor has certain rights.
So everyone knows that they will be paying 10, 20, or 50 thousand more to "the neighbor" if they want to buy anything around here. When houses are in the million dollar range, a few thousand more makes not much of a difference.

Being able to afford a house today is very difficult, more than ever before, if young couples choose to live in an established desirable area. It is easy to say "MOVE" but not easy or always possible to do it.
I would rather live near my friends and parents in a tiny apartment, than live in a mansion in Cleveland.
Life is expensive.

djsheckie

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 10:19 am

I agree with the posters who are suggesting that if you can't afford to live in the popular frum area maybe you should live on the outskirts.

However, sometimes in frum communities there is a certain amount of thoughtlessness when it comes to housing. In a particular community I used to live in more affluent shul members would by up two nice older single story homes for around $300,000 each, have them knocked down and then build a huge mc mansion over the two lots. This resulted in some families who had been living in the area for years to sell their homes and move b/c they couldn't afford the property taxes anymore.

Sure they made a lot of money selling their older home but many of them were happy with their home and didn't want to move. This is especially difficult for older persons who don't necessarily have the ability to walk long distances.

Yes frum Jews can make money and build fancy homes and it isn't technically wrong but sometimes the pursuit of personal luxury comes at someone else's expense.

Lady Godiva

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 10:24 am

amother wrote:

OP:
I know investors who do just what you wrote (close relatives of mine, too). This is their livelihood. They aren't stealing from you or anybody else who can't afford a house, but they are invesging in theirs and their children's futures.
Just for the record, they give plenty of tzedakah and even support some yeshivot, both in the U.S. and in Israel.
If you want, give them a call and see if they're willing to sell a house to you. You never know who wants to get a house off his/her hands.
But just because they are investing in a neighborhood where you want to buy, doesn't mean that they're not "mentches."

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 2:29 pm

djsheckie wrote:

I agree with the posters who are suggesting that if you can't afford to live in the popular frum area maybe you should live on the outskirts.

more affluent shul members would by up two nice older single story homes for around $300,000 each, have them knocked down and then build a huge mc mansion over the two lots. This resulted in some families who had been living in the area for years to sell their homes and move b/c they couldn't afford the property taxes anymore.

Were these people living in the houses and forced to move out, or were they living in adjacent homes and forced to move out? Why did the property taxes rise?

Last edited by amother on Wed, Dec 30 2015, 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

ally

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 2:53 pm

Grandmama wrote:

louche wrote:

Why are the Batei Din enabling this? Making a profit out of buyers is not really the intent of the halachos regarding neighbours rights.

tryinghard

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 3:11 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

louche wrote:

sequoia wrote:

I don't think Judaism requires us to be capitalists. ?

Neither does it forbid it.

Hmm...maaser is sort of socialist.

chas v'shalom! The Torah obligates us to give 10% of our income to tzedaka. It does not
a)require everyone to have similar belongings and income levels
b)imply that there is something ethically wrong about being rich
c)empower the government to "even things out"

Maaser is on an individual, not the nation. The one giving maaser is doing it of his own volition. The intent is to help out the poor individual, not to even out the classes. The rich person is considered lucky, because he is in a position to help people out - not that he is evil because he has more, and he should not have more than others. Socialism is totally antithetical to Torah values.

Tova

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 3:46 pm

Grandmama wrote:

In my frum neighborhood it is very common to have a din torah with almost every house bought/sold.
The next door neighbor always has first right to buy,and whether he wants to buy or not, whether he needs it or not, he will insist of being the "first buyer" so that he can flip it to the real buyer and make some really easy money. The din torah arises when there are a few "next door neighbors" fighting over a right to a property. (or the right to make a few quick bucks)
This happens all the time, because halachically the next door neighbor has certain rights.
So everyone knows that they will be paying 10, 20, or 50 thousand more to "the neighbor" if they want to buy anything around here. When houses are in the million dollar range, a few thousand more makes not much of a difference.

Ah, halachos of dinei d'bar metzra. Which only apply if the next door neighbors want it for their own use. And some say does not apply to houses/apartments at all, only adjoining fields (as it is easier to plow two adjoining fields than 2 smaller ones in different locations).

And dinei d'bar metzra only was put into affect because of "v'asisa hayashar v'hatov." What you are describing seems a bit backwards, doesn't it? (not knocking you, just the practice).

Tova

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 3:52 pm

sky, totally agree with you (b"H I don't hear of it happening here).

I can open a pizza store and make money. That's not called making money off of other people. They want my pizza and are willing to pay for it.

I cannot put every other pizza store out of business and build my business that way.

This is not about home owners who want to sell their residence for a profit. This is specifically about people who buy homes with no intention to live in it and buy up all available homes so that they can set the new baseline price.

I am not even sure why people are so convinced that it is not assur halachically to do this.

saw50st8

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 4:17 pm

tryinghard wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

louche wrote:

sequoia wrote:

I don't think Judaism requires us to be capitalists. ?

Neither does it forbid it.

Hmm...maaser is sort of socialist.

Socialism is about providing for society at large, at the expense of an individual.

Maaser, leket, shichah and peah are all forms of forced charity. Are they exactly socialist? No, but the concept of "steal from the rich, give to the poor" does have a basis in Judaism.

tryinghard

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 5:26 pm

entropy wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Socialism is totally antithetical to Torah values.

Social issues are a huge focus of the Torah laws, the Gemara would be a lot shorter the goal was capitalism. Shabbat for example is anti-capitalist.

social issues, yes. socialism, no.

saw50st8 wrote:

Socialism is about providing for society at large, at the expense of an individual - at the expense of all able individuals, or in other words at the expense of society at large.

Judaism has the individual help an individual - not provide for him and not for society in general. The Torah is certainly not being mechayev the dayanim or shoftim or other leaders to redistribute wealth.

Quote:

Maaser, leket, shichah and peah are all forms of forced charity. Are they exactly socialist? No, but the concept of "steal from the rich, give to the poor" does have a basis in Judaism.

There are two things wrong with this statement. Firstly, the concept of "steal from the rich" has absolutely no place in Judaism! We do not steal! Lo signov! The rich man is giving of his own volition. Even if you want to say that he is forced by God, and by beis din, it is not because of any idea of social justice, or providing for the whole or anything like that, but simply because he is being mevatel a chiyuv - like any other chiyuv- and he still has bechira. Secondly,using these as proof that Judaism supports socialism doesn't work because the poor man has the exact same chiyuv! he is equally obligated to give - something which certainly doesn't fit with socialism...

BusyBeeMommy

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 5:57 pm

mammele26 wrote:

I think it's great that people can own as much and as many as they want (I hope to one day!). But I do find something wrong with doing business on other pp's cheshbon. Meaning, I feel it's wrong if my doing business will mean that people will have less to eat/drink. Same goes to decent housing. You want to do business? No Problem! Do it in the commercial world, in other type neighborhoods, etc. Oh, and then BUY (to own, not sell to make money) as many as you want in our neighborhood. Not on the cheshbon of struggling families. I know when and if I have the means, I will not be doing business like that. I'm not commenting on whether these people are wrong. I know that I won't do it. I could never live knowing that in fact I was able to make it easier for yidden and made it harder instead. And decent housing isn't a luxury. It's a necessity. I don't think the wealth should be distributed. I'm very against that. But I think it's selfish to not think about those who are less fortunate.

No one will have less if they cannot buy a house int he specific neighborhood they desire. Why is everyone automatically entitled to buy a house in whichever neighborhood they want? If they can't afford housing in the neighborhood they currently live in, they'll have to look elsewhere. There are plenty of frum communities around the US that are more affordable: Detroit, Cleveland, Dallas, Houstin, Waterbury, Lakewood and many more. Or they can move to Israel. Yes it's difficult to pick up and move. It's difficult to make many financial decisions when one doesn't have all the money in the world. You have to compromise somewhere. Some choose to live in smaller quarters with no land around them in more desirable areas, and others choose to live in more remote areas in larger quarters.

amother

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 8:11 pm

Rodent wrote:

I know it's legal and all that but I understand where you're coming from completely OP.
But then I personally think that people should only be allowed to own one home and the government own a certain amount for rental purposes that have prices kept at reasonable levels. It always seems unfair to me when people have holiday homes and investment homes and those who NEED housing can't afford anything because the prices are pushed up by inflated numbers of buyers vs owner/occupiers. Unrealistic? Absolutely. Still bugs me.

And I'm happy that your house was affordable marina. I don't think anywhere near a synagogue would be affordable in Australia full stop. I think we're in about the cheapest area and it's never going to happen.

hey there, I live in Australia too and I'm no where near the top of the money wheel, barely making our mortgage payments so no, no investments or holiday houses in sight.
But I have to ask you, what the heck does holiday houses have to do with anything?
those holiday houses are not even in the area, were you planning on buying in chelsea? frankston? c'mon, this is just picking at straws and looking to blame others for our own hardships.
I think we need to be fargin others what they have.
someone with a holiday home in chelsea is not affecting the price of housing in St Kilda or Caulfield.

amother

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 8:16 pm

amother wrote:

of course what they are doing is okay, its called normal legal business. people are looking to make money and there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. just because you can't afford a house at the price they are looking for doesn't mean that what they are doing is not "mentchlich". one has nothing to do with the other. sorry to be so harsh but this is the reality of life... and trust me I know what its like not to have money so I live with this reality every day