BTs--where do your families fit in with your children?

Beginner Joined: Jul 27 2010 Posts: 24 Location: diaspora

To all BTs (Ba'alei teshuvas)
How do you stay in contact with your families (parents, siblings) when you are raising your children in such a different context? How do you explain things? Do you share meals?

I'd like your view on the matter, clearly affecting so many of us in this generation...Thanks!

Executive Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 424

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 11 2007 Posts: 2587

DH and I are both BT. Both my parents and his live close by and are involved. Siblings much less so, but that's largely due to geography. We invite our families to Shabbos and Yom tov meals. It's not 100% wonderful. They're definitely there for the grandkids and the meal. It's not hard to read the expressions on their faces that say getting up to wash for bread, bentching, listening to divrei Torah is a hassle and a bore. At least they're there.
Right now my kids are very young so I haven't had to explain anything. These issues are right around the corner though so I am trying to anticipate and be prepared.

Gold Member Joined: Nov 12 2005 Posts: 1709

They think yiddishkeit is nuts, and by extension I'm nuts. They became way more tolerant since I had kids, and I have also become more flexible because I very much want them to be a big part of my kids' lives. They also see how much the kids love it, and admire the kids' values and kindness when compared to the run of the mill kids they see every day, and are starting to see that maybe it's not all a coincidence.

It's my ils. they live in another part of the country so we see them maybe once a year but have regular phone contact. it was easier when the kids were little because issues come up with older children that don't apply with little ones, like getting them to minyan. dh davens daily but not with a minyan, so he doesn't care, but ds davens with a minyan three times a day and takes it very seriously. this makes it almost impossible to visit ils b/c there's no shul near them, and in any case they don't want to cut short a day trip so ds can get to shul. the fact that dh resents the disruption of plans doesn't help.

ils are kosher but not so careful, and it's not pleasant to tell mil that the hechsher on something she bought in good faith is iffy or that we won't eat or drink something from a vending stand. They think "what can be in a cherry ice cream cone?" , and if it's not meat or a pork derivative, it's fine.
ils go mixed swimming and want us to join. sil dresses very untzanua, which is uncomfortable for ds and not a good influence on dd. Ils have given the kids toys I didn't like, other relatives gave us videos I didn't want the kids to see, etc.

when dh and I got married, I didn't realize that his folks had made some changes for his sake but hadn't really bought in to the whole thing. Their grandparents were Orthodox so I assumed they had just backslid but had shaped up when dh did. Dh seems in many ways less particular than he was when we met, or maybe it's just that he's not standing up to challenges that didn't exist at the time.

So while I wouldn't tell my kids not to marry a BT, I would tell them to look very carefully at their families and figure out if they're ready, willing, and strong enough to stand up to mishpacha who may not be supportive of their level of observance.

my in laws are not frum, but they are very respectful. when they are in our house they dont do anything that would make my child ask anything. but if and when we go to their house they drive on shabbat and things like that.

she is only two but when she gets old enough to ask questions, I will probably be telling her, or my husband will, that grandma and grandpa grew up and never learned what to do or not to do (depending on the situation)

we will not hide anything from our children. we will tell them like it is.

There are non frum immediate family members on both sides (siblings and parents). I would be ashamed to not have them in our lives on a regular basis. Just because they're not frum doesn't make me love them any less or respect them any less. And they all have their own positive attributes that are a great influence on my children. I don't believe in sheltering my kids from the reality that the majority of the world is not frum yet there are tons of educated, compassionate, admirable people out there. The sooner they realize this the better. My brother in law is not jewish and he is one of the greatest people I know - he just is married to my jewish sister. My kids adore him and he is invited to every simcha and family party.

The only issue I ever have is the food issue. I end up hosting most everything b/c none of them are kosher. But when we do go there we either bring our own food or they buy some basics that they know are kosher. There's always water and fruit!

And as long as they don't make fun of my lifestyle or say anything negative about it, I don't say anything about theirs.
_________________
I'm not the popular Mama Bear. I'm "the other one."

Silver Member Joined: May 29 2008 Posts: 519

As DS is only 16 mos, I haven't had any questions yet. My father is not Jewish, and my mother and brothers are not practicing anything (although my younger brother shows a lot of interest). We live in a diff state, so we don't visit often, but my mother and I talk almost daily and we're very close, and always have been. She does not hide that she is disappointed in my decision to be frum, but we are working past it, and she's always quick to say that she is proud of me, my family, and our accomplishments. We visit probably bi-monthly with her visiting us or vice versa, and although she will use her cell on Shabbos, she goes in a diff room and doesn't flaunt what she's doing openly, and when we're visiting, my brothers tend to just avoid being home on Shabbos. She does however always kasher the kitchen whenever we visit, which is very nice, and pays attention to hechsherim. I fully expect DS to ask later on why Oma and his Uncles do things he knows are wrong, or why Pa-Pa and all that side of the family aren't Jewish, and I plan to tell him the full truth (as he becomes old enough to understand). For instance, I know that my grandparents on my mother's side were frum, but went OTD following one final tragedy in a string of tragedies in their lives. That obviously is not a story I would tell a 4-yo, who would get a simpler answer, but an explanation I would share later.

The simplest answer I've come up with so far is to tell him that some children are raised with the bracha of learning all the mitzvot and some are not. But keeping the halochos or not in no way makes any of my family less Jewish, and they need to still be treated with the respect he would give any other adult.

Gold Member Joined: Apr 23 2007 Posts: 1398

I grew up frum but Dh didn't so ILs are all not frum.

To their huge credit, they are super accommodating to us. We live in Israel so daily its not an issue but we usually go to them once a yr and they come here once a yr. WE speak/skype with them several times a week.

When they come here, its easiest. They stay in a hotel but they eat by us so its not an issue.

MIL has given us a whole corner of her kitchen. WE have 2 cabinets of kosher stuff plus a microwave and toaster oven and we kasher one of her ovens when we get there. We also have kosher racks for the BBQ grill. They live near a huge frum community so she goes to the kosher store and stocks up. WE have never stayed there for shabbos b/c they are not walking distance from the shul so I think that makes things a lot easier. 24 hours of shabbos might be too much for them.

All in all, I am thankful to them for being so accommodating and understanding. The biggest issue we have had was when MIL could not get over that DH couldn't go to his grandfather's (her FIL) levaya. DH is a cohein. She kept saying, he made you a cohein how come you can't go? IN the end, he flew in for the levaya and stayed outside and was around for shiva.

My oldest is 3 and is starting to ask so we will see what happens.

DH has 1 brother, married. Who is also quite understanding. Again, we don't see them much but when we do they get it. We were recently all at IL's together and I asked them to make sure the snacks that they were getting for their son were kosher (so I wouldn't have to deal with the kids not being able to have cookies or whatever b/c they weren't kosher when kosher ones are just as easy to buy) They totally agreed.

Actually when they got married a few yrs ago DH & I made them sheva brachos and they and all their friends loved it! We try to show all of the family the beauty of yidishkeit without pressuring them on anything--

Beginner Joined: Jul 27 2010 Posts: 24 Location: diaspora

OP here
I ask the question because I find it difficult not only to explain the differences (the kids understand so far that some Jews "know Hashem and His Torah" and others don't), but to prevent the negative influences that non-frum (or anti-religion/anti-Jewish jews) display.
For example, my nieces and nephews are all about the latest toys, gadgets, competition, grabbing the food before anyone can tell them not to, lying when someone catches them doing something wrong, etc. They fight all the time and call each other degrading names (they are 6-11 years old). They lie, they try to cheat in family board games...basically, they show my children everything I am trying to teach them NOT to do. I can tell them that some people don't follow the Torah, but can I prevent this negative influence from affecting them? (My kids are very young but understand what is going on around them).

Beginner Joined: May 17 2010 Posts: 12

My mother's side isn't religious but we would still invite them for shabbos and have what to do with them. My mother explained to us that there are a lot of people who either don't know any better or have a hard time except religion. My siblings and I never really questioned because we were so exposed to it and it wasn't such a big deal to us. OP, I don't think the problem with your family has to do with religion, it has more to do with chinuch, there are plenty of frum children who act the same way and you have to explain that to your children.

I agree with janedoe. your concerns seem more of a chinuch issue than a BT issue. I've seen poor parenting in frum families, and great parenting in non-frum families, so that's really the problem here.
in general, my oldest is almost 21, my youngest is 2. my DH and I are both BT and our families are not interested in being frum. the family members we are regularly in contact with respect our lifestyle and we have had no problems explaining the differences to our children. the kids understand that we live by the Torah and are not ashamed as it feels normal for us. if anything, they often speak about feeling sorry for their cousins who don't know about tznius clothing or waste their time with the TV or movies. we try to emphasize that Ahavas Yisrael starts with family--immediate family and close relatives. we also learned a long time ago that we are not going to make our families frum. our children, on the other hand, seem to have a magical influence on their relatives and have made inroads into mitzva observance for some of our relatives...
I cannot stress enough the importance of loving and respecting everyone as a Tzelem Elokim, it pays big dividends.
hatzlacha rabba
King

Wow! I feel so strongly about this! If I had it to do over again, we would NEVER have moved to the same city as my non-frum in-laws when my kids were growing up. It made them feel really different about themselves, and subtly doubt our ethics and hashkofos. We wouldn't allow the in laws to drive over on shabbos etc. (anyway my mil would have been embarrassed to) so the kids didn't know their grandparents weren't frum til a ridiculously mature age like 12, believe it or not, so they were mkabel things their grandparents said behind our backs, things with subtly negative implications, and subtle degradation of our values. Maybe I'm wrong, after all they grew up with a lot of unconditional love and all the good stuff grandparents are supposed to provide, and they a re mostly B"H fine, frumkeit wise, but it was a big risk, I think, and they absorbed a lot that they shouldn't have. Kids can't see grey areas when it comes to people they are close to, and it's so dangreous to set up bad role models for them, so closely related. When they are young, they have to feel that the only "normal" way to be is our way!
Yet, as I write this I know my kids would be violently against what I am saying, also,my poor mil was so alone after my fil's petira that I an really glad we live near her. I don't know the answer, but it is not simple and when I see bt's' kids turning away, it is sometimes because of the strong influences they were exposed to, and it's not fair to them. A long distance, loving but abstract relationship seems better to me.

Executive Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 424

I think the best thing you can do is to help your kids distinguish between "Observance level" and "Behavior". There are frum people and non-frum people. Either one can behave properly or not properly. (This is the same discussion for when frum people break the law and people say, "see all those religious Jews are criminals"). It is not just the domain of Jews to behave well or non-Jews to behave badly.

People are all Hashem's creations, and it is our job to respect one another.

That being said there is nothing wrong with stating, REPEATEDLY, what YOUR FAMILY'S VALUES are. "This is what we believe...even if our cousins don't do ______, this is what we do in OUR FAMILY."

For example, we feel strongly that FOR OUR FAMILY tsnius begins at age three and that girls need to wear full tights (ie no socks). And when my kids say, "But everyone else in camp is wearing socks...", my response is always, "In OUR FAMILY, we wear full tights because that is how we understand the halacha. I am not concerned with the other girls, they are not in OUR FAMILY."

Beginner Joined: Jul 27 2010 Posts: 24 Location: diaspora

Thanks for all the input. Amother, I was thinking the same thing, that the closer the relatives are, the more influence they have over the children as they grow up (the kids look up to them so much).
I also understand everyone's point about chinuch and differentiating that from religion. I think there are just some things that don't come up in religious homes (like fighthing over who gets to play with the latest war-inspired video game), and the issues my children fight about are still relatively "frum"...if that makes any sense. Like my daughter will fight me on wearing a skirt instead of a dress. YAY I'm doing a good job when my toddler wants a skirt. We're not arguing between how many hours of television are ok each day, or how ok it is to lie to our sibling when trying to win a game.

I hope I am making sense...?