Israelis: Do you use OU and OK, (and other US hashgachot)?

binah918

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 4:28 am

I recently made aliyah from the States. Of course, I grew up using all the good US.hechsherim, (OU, OK, etc.). Now I'm in Israel and of course I'm learning about the Israeli hasgachot.

My husband is a Sabra and prefers to use only the good Israeli hashgachot, (mehadrin/Badatz), he's familiar with. Recently on Radio Kol Chai, (the charedi radio station), we heard a story about various hechsherim from Chul and even though they are considered "the best" in Chul, they wouldn't even meet the mehadrin/Badatz kashrus standards here in Israel. (My husband said this is nothing new. It was just the first time I heard this discussion.)

Since my husband is not so comfortable using OU and OK, for example, I've tried to stop using them. This means I'm not buying some of the imported products I like, (Craisins, cranberry sauce, cocunut milk, etc.).

Question to Israeli amothers: Are you familliar with this? Have you stopped using certain US hechsherim that you considered "the best" in the States? Are the US hechsharim accepted in your communities?

(I'm not sure if the Israeli Lubavitch community "officially" uses OU, OK, etc. Of course, many Lubavitch, American olim still do. But the shliach in our area once asked me to cook something for the Chabad House and asked specifically if I still used OU and OK.)

Curious to hear other Israelis thoughts/experiences with this!

shalhevet

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 4:47 am

AFAIK chareidim in Israel don't generally use these hechsherim because, as you mentioned, the Israeli bedatzim are of a higher standard. I also heard from a Rabbi, originally from the US, who lives in Israel and is an expert on kashrus, that the OU is not a mehadrin hechsher, but rather a reliable hechsher for regular kashrus.

I am originally from England and we wouldn't buy many products which are acceptable in Chareidi homes in England.

My dh really would rather we don't buy any products with outside Israel kashrus. E.g there are many candies etc here with various hechsherim and we don't buy them. We would use some of those hechsherim if someone gave us something/served us something. People here say that mehadrin in chul is equivalent to rabbanut here.

If there is a specific product that you want to use that you can't find an equivalent you could ask your rav about it specifically.

suomynona

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 5:10 am

Yerushalayim. A lot of people stopped eating at RM restaurants as of after pesach last year. There were problems - I dont' know or remember the details. But there was some funny business going on.

Everyone in my neighborhood eats American hechsherim. The makolet has a very big selection of American products. I guess it is different if you are integrated into Israeli society. My neighborhood is a miniature America.
But I think that even if we do end up living here and integrating, we will still eat those hechsherim. My husband feels they are reliable and the fact that everyone around us does differently doesn't change the hechsher.

binah918

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 7:22 am

Sarad, why do you say that? I'm very interested in hearing the other side of the story.

As far as I've heard, this is the general thought on numerous chul "mehadrin" hashgachos. My husband is close with a number of kashrus "experts" who I beleive are quite knowledgable about kashrus and different hashgachos around the world, and they too express this opinion.

The radio program I refered to in my original post was very interesting. It took some commonly accepted OU/OK products used by the American charedi community and inspected their ingredients and manufacturing. They had kashrus experts speak about the differences between the American product, (peanut butter, for example, though I forget the brand), and the Israeli product.

Not to say of course that OU and OK aren't "reliable" or "good," CV"S. But the guests on the show said that some things, especially different additives, flavors, colors, etc. are much harder to find "mehadrin" for US maufacturers. What they use is kosher, and it's even the highest standard they have available, but its not the highest standard for Israel as the availablity of kosher products is of course greater here.

Food for thought! (Pun intended!)

amother

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 7:35 am

we use all hechsherim from rabbanut to ou to whatever is in the store where we are buying.

I really dont get the whole "politics" of all of the different hechsherim?

cant we just all have one hechsher that is a good one?

my husband comes from south africa where ALL of their basari things are beit din kosher and that means that they are mehadrin. that is the only hechsher there so the non frum ppl are eating the same meat and chicken as the charedi ppl are.

isnt that so much nicer and less likely for hechsherim to become political?

binah918

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 7:42 am

Amother, I agree it's much nicer and much less political! That's certainly the ideal situation.

And b/c everything is so political, I don't want to say CV"S that someone who eats Rabbanut isn't eating a reliable hashgacha. We have many close friends, true yirei shamayim, who hold by Rabbanut. I think everyone needs to do what's best for them, l'sheim shamayim and with the close guidance of a Rav they respect and beleive to be knowledgable and trustworthy in matters of kashrus.

As long as that's how someone decides on which hashgachos to eat and which not to eat, I'm not going to CV"S criticize their decisions...though I may not eat at their home myself.

(Though for the record there are certain hashgachos that have well documented cases against them and have shown themselves to be un-reliable. So it's not that "anything goes.")

TzenaRena

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 7:53 am

Here in Crown Heights there is a Vaad Hakashrus that checks out various products and has an "approved' list. There is no such thing as blanket endorsement of any paticular hechsher whether OU or OK, or any charedi American hechsher. Everything depends on whether our Vaad is able to check it out thoroughly at the factory, and it meets their standard. The list is quite limited, but most essential ingredients and staples are represented.

For example, vinegar is an item that I have to stock up on when it is available with the CH Badatz hechsher, because there are very few vinegars that meet their approval, and more often than not, it's not on the shelf at my grocery. In turn, I don't buy any item with vinegar as an ingredient, unless I can find out from them that it's approved.

Other than the approved list, which is available to caterers, and institutions, they recommend BaDatZ Yerushalayim Eidah HaChareidis, and Harav Landau from Bnei Berak.

These are the hechsherim that my Israeli guests use. (they come for the entire Tishrei, so we have lots of opportunity to discuss hechsherim and food).

BH, many more of these products are being sold here in NY than previously, so life is getting a little easier in that sense.

binah918

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 7:58 am

Yes, Badatz Eida Charedis and Rav Landa are considered the best. MY DH says Rubin is also very, very good.

My family is from out-of-town with, obviously, a much smaller kosher selection. Good to know SaraYehudis, that the Israeli hashgachos are becoming more readily available in the States.

Now when I come back to visit, because I've been living in Israel and am more knowledgable about the kashrus, (and also b/c my DH prefers), I'm happy to know I'll be able to get more products under those hashgachos.

amother

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 8:02 am

this is the same mother who osted anonomously that she keeps whatever hechsher is in the stores by me.

was this question specifically for the charedi women in Israel? if so, then you can just ignore what I wrote. I am not charedi so, maybe that makes a difference.

to me, these hechesherim are just one more thing that keeps us jews separate from eachother more and more.........

binah918

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 8:14 am

Maybe orginally I expected "charedi" women to answer, but I appreciate your feedback.

I agree that all the different hechsharim create boundaries and separations between Jews. (That's why I say your S. African meat example is ideal!) But the truth is different communities have different chumras that they hold by. I don't think the distinctions this creates are bad. I think they're beautiful, as these distinctions preserve wonderful community traditions.

It's when someone looks down on another who is less stringent BUT STILL HOLDS BY HALACHA, that the BAD boundaries are created. (Or just the opposite, when someone crticizes another for being a "crazy, chumra fanatic!") Like I said, we have many close friends, true yirei shamayim who eat Rabbanut. I respect them. They're eating kosher food! They're keeping the halachos of kashrus! They're just not holding by MY chumras. But who says they sould?!

So amother, I agree with you to a point. Yes, these kashrus distinctions do create boundaries between Jews. But when we're respectful of others who hold by different standards, (AS LONG AS THEY HOLD BY HALACHA), these distinctions should not affect our ahavas yisroel!

(Sadly, many do not have this respectful approach to different HALACHIC standards of kashrus...)

shalhevet

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 11:09 am

To the amother:

Firstly if you're so sure you are right, why anonymous?

It really makes me sick to hear people shouting "politics" all the time everyone wants to be more makpid.
Perhaps you'd like to explain why kosher and mehadrin are the same and the difference is just politics? On what do you base your facts, apart from other people who want to say that they are just as "beseder" without making the effort to be more makpid.

Just a few examples:

Chicken - mehadrin has supervision for injections etc
-mehadrin shechita lines have far few chickens shected per hour per schochet I.e. they can be more careful
-kashering- in regular kosher they don't slit the chicken all the way before they kasher, so the salt doesn't reach many parts of the chicken
plus many,many other things that I don't know

Milk products - not from milk from Shabbos
- additives carefully checked
- some have added non- chalav -yisrael milk powder
- some have gelatine

Matza- the non-mehadrin don't clean the machines every 18 minutes, so if a piece of dough gets stuck it can become part of the next batch. They rely on batul b'rov. Basically you're on very sticky ground as regards chametz.

Fruits - rely on most of fruit x this year is not Orla I.e. the fruit you eat might be

Need I go on...
The biggest proof is that many rabbanuts have a mehadrin hechsher as well. If the rav in charge thought that his regular hechsher was ideal why would he also make a mehadrin hechsher. If you don't believe me you can phone up someone like Rav Rubin from Rechovot and ask him what the difference is between his regular and mehadrin hechsherim.
The aim of the regular Rabbanut is to produce things at a minimal kashrut level so that as many people as possible will eat things which are at least kosher b'dieved.

suomynona

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 1:21 pm

Hechsherim and politics do often go hand in hand in Israel. I'm not talking about people who only eat mehadrin because they're makpid. I'm talking about, for example, certain groups who don't eat the Belz hechsher - pure politics.
That's why it was practically impossible for us to find out info last year on whose hechsherim are not reliable. People will tell you not to eat a certain hechsher, but you can't be sure if they don't eat it because of politics or because of a real kashrus-related reason.

binah918

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 3:10 pm

I guess that's a question for your Rav. Again, the hechsharim accepted in the American charedi community are considered the "best" readily available in the States. So if you're doing the best you can very reasonably do, must you strive to do even more? I think only your personal Rav can answer that based on his understanding of your specific situation, Israeli hechshareim actually available in your community, etc.

ceo

Wed, Jul 19 2006, 5:08 pm

Many of te questions regarding hashgacha really need to be directed to a Rav- but not just your local Orthodox Rabbi with a long beard LOL

, but a RAv who is very, very knowledgeable in areas of kashrus and the ins and outs of hechsherim. For instance, R' Y. Berkowitz in Sanhedria Murchevet is known to be be a Buki in kashrus and niddah (among other things, of course).

One of the reasons this is because many hechsherim are dependent on each other. For instance, a food item with the hashgacha of She'aris in Bnei Brak might be relying on star-K's hechsher for one of the raw ingredients. I heard from a person who was at a meeting of mashgichim in E"Y and are involved w/ this hechsher: a certain soft drink in E"Y w/ a reliable hechsher relies on the hecher that the OU gives it in the states.