If you really want it ...

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Previous 1 2 3 4 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Motek

Wed, Feb 23 2005, 1:43 pm

that's what I was going to post, sarahd, about Moshe - he could have, but didn't insist

Quote:

So, I think that people can do most things if they really want to - things that are in human hands, that is, not things such as being cured from illness r"l.

that's the point exactly

Quote:

The question is, is a person mechuyav to want something like kollel life in such measure that he will do anything to achieve it? I think not.

of course not
neither is a person obligated to go to the lengths that R' Yekusiel (some posts ago) did, he could have simply studied maamarim on his level and left it at that

Quote:

So at what point do you keep davening and when do you accept the inevitable?

generally we apply the Chazal, "even if a sharp sword is lying on a person's neck, he should not despair of [G-d's] mercy"

Quote:

So the question, as I see it, is not how to get what we want, but how to want what Hashem wants.

well put

gryp

Wed, Feb 23 2005, 1:53 pm

sarahd- your post was beautiful. sounds exactly like what chassidus teaches us, especially the part about Moshe Rabbeinu and what it means to be a leader of a generation.

Motek

Thu, Feb 24 2005, 1:21 pm

another example - the Jews in the desert who asked, "why should we lose out" about not being able to bring the Pesach sacrifice because they were impure

in their merit, the Jewish people were taught the mitzva of Pesach Sheini

the point is that they could have simply said: hey, we're impure, we can't bring it, tough on us, that's that, either feeling resigned to the situation or indifferent

but they really wanted to bring it, and made their plea, and the rest is history

gryp

Thu, Feb 24 2005, 1:47 pm

also, the (L.) Rebbe encouraged the singing of "We Want Moshiach Now!" because we have to say "We Want!" and to ask and demand Moshiach. we should not just sit idly by and say "whenever Hashem wants to bring Moshiach He will because anyway He'll do it at the right time," but Hashem wants to hear us demand and ask for it.

yehudis

Thu, Feb 24 2005, 2:36 pm

So how do we know what is in our hands and what isn't? Is illness always not in human hands? What about childlessness? We have Chana, mother of Shmuel Hanavi, on the one hand, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe on the other hand. A while ago there was someone on a different Jewish forum who was trying to decide if they should continue infertility treatments or if they should accept their situation. How would a person know what Hashem really wants from them in situations like that?

yehudis

Thu, Feb 24 2005, 2:38 pm

On a similar subject, although maybe this should go into the Mitzvos and emotions thread, are we supposed to want to do mitzvos? If we don't like doing a certain mitzva, do we need to work on getting to like it?

Motek

Fri, Feb 25 2005, 10:44 am

Quote:

how do we know what is in our hands and what isn't?

there's the Chazal "ha'kol b'yidei shomayim, chutz m'yiras shomayim" - all is in the hands of heaven except fear of heaven

what about other things like children etc.?

the Rashi about Avraham comes to mind, that Hashem took Avraham "out of his mazal" and this enabled him to have children, for prior to that, according to the mazal he was born under, he could not have children

so it seems that although things are pre-ordained, we are still able to change our destiny

we can change it through prayer and through really wanting and by taking action (as in applying oneself to one's learning)

Quote:

and the Lubavitcher Rebbe on the other hand

don't know that this is the "other hand"

we have no information about the Rebbe and Rebbetzin and their wanting children and what, if anything, they did or didn't do

Quote:

A while ago there was someone on a different Jewish forum who was trying to decide if they should continue infertility treatments or if they should accept their situation. How would a person know what Hashem really wants from them in situations like that?

it helps to speak to someone objective and knowledgable in this area

if it was solely up to the woman, I would think she has to be the one to decide whether to pursue treatments if she is the one undergoing it

but the man has the mitzva of peru u'revu, so seems this is a halachic issue as to how far his obligation goes to try and have children

Quote:

are we supposed to want to do mitzvos? If we don't like doing a certain mitzva, do we need to work on getting to like it?

if we view mitzvos as the only way for us to connect with G-d, then the question becomes:

"are we supposed to want to connect to G-d?"

when you read the description in the Rambam about how a person ought to be lovesick over G-d far more than madly in love with a woman, the question, "supposed to want" seems ...

yehudis

Fri, Feb 25 2005, 12:27 pm

Quote:

we have no information about the Rebbe and Rebbetzin and their wanting children and what, if anything, they did or didn't do

I am not asking about what they did, but it seems safe to assume that they wanted children. How could they not?

Quote:

but the man has the mitzva of peru u'revu, so seems this is a halachic issue as to how far his obligation goes to try and have children

Halachically, a man is not obligated to undertake fertility treatments at all, only to do the regular stuff. We asked that shaila once.

Quote:

if we view mitzvos as the only way for us to connect with G-d, then the question becomes:

"are we supposed to want to connect to G-d?"

What about the negative mitzvos? How do you feel connected by not doing something?

Motek

Fri, Feb 25 2005, 1:00 pm

Quote:

What about the negative mitzvos? How do you feel connected by not doing something?

you ask good questions yehudis, I enjoy them Smile

one way would be, when refraining from doing something prohibited like lying or stealing, to do so because G-d said so

back to the prayer comments and about the response being "no"
- in parshas Ki Sisa, chapter 33:19 on the word, "v'richamti" Rashi says, "When I will want to have mercy. Up to this point, Hashem only promised that sometimes I will answer and sometimes I will not answer, but (later in chapter 34) He promised that [prayers] would not be returned empty."

yehudis

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 1:36 am

Motek wrote:

you ask good questions yehudis, I enjoy them Smile

Good, because I'm about to ask some more Smile

Quote:

back to the prayer comments and about the response being "no"
- in parshas Ki Sisa, chapter 33:19 on the word, "v'richamti" Rashi says, "When I will want to have mercy. Up to this point, Hashem only promised that sometimes I will answer and sometimes I will not answer, but (later in chapter 34) He promised that [prayers] would not be returned empty."

So what does it mean that prayers would not be returned empty? Of course, every prayer accomplishes something, because even if we do not get what we are asking for, we still get closer to Hashem by praying and asking for it. But the answer could still be no.

And a more complicated question. Given that what Hashem does is always good, why do we make requests at all? Why do we pray for specific things? Why don't we just say, "whatever Hashem does is good, so I'll just wait and see what happens?"

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 12:24 pm

Motek, based on your postulate that real betachon is to expect & to know that H' wil lprovide, Like in the rent story, why isn't Mashiah here yet?

Or do you think that not once in the history there were people who had the bitahon to be sure that redemption is going to come during thier life time?

Especially, considering the amount of energy the last lub. Rebbi & his followers put into it.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 12:26 pm

Quote:

there's the Chazal "ha'kol b'yidei shomayim, chutz m'yiras shomayim" - all is in the hands of heaven except fear of heaven

wait, isn't betahon supposed to be all - powerful, like in the rent story?

gryp

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 12:29 pm

bitachon and yiras shamayim are very different.

Motek

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 1:02 pm

yehudis wrote:

every prayer accomplishes something, because even if we do not get what we are asking for, we still get closer to Hashem by praying and asking for it. But the answer could still be no.

the implication of "prayers not being returned empty" is that the prayers are effective (in addition to the person being changed for the better for praying)

here's a short and wonderful piece by Tzvi Freeman that directly responds to the question - do we sometimes get a no when we pray? if not, so where are the results?

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....07463

Quote:

Given that what Hashem does is always good, why do we make requests at all?

because He told us to, it's a mitzva

ForeverYoung wrote:

based on your postulate

let's get this straight - it's not MY postulate, but that of the Chovos Ha'Levavos and other Torah greats

Quote:

why isn't Mashiah here yet?

good question!

I'll offer two answers.

the first answer is - you're right! it's unacceptable and absurd and incredible that we are not living in the true and complete Geula already! And Moshiach (or Eliyahu) will have a lot of explaining to do!

the second answer - apparently, there is a Divine time-frame in which certain things need to happen before we bring our Korbon Pesach in the Beis Ha'Mikdash and I think that bitachon is one's personal trust in Hashem for one's own life not the lives of others

In addition, I don't think it has to do with bitachon (which is the other thread), but more about Really Wanting It. Although countless Jews certainly wanted Moshiach, the following bears thinking about:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe, on 28 Nisan 5751 (1991), asked your question and said something shocking. He said:

"It's an enormous question - how is it possible that Moshiach still hasn't come? This is not at all understandable! Also astonishing - dozens of Jews gather at a time most auspicious for Geula, yet they don't make a commotion about bringing Moshiach immediately, and it's not out of the question for them, may G-d have mercy, that Moshiach not come tonight, and even tomorrow, and even two days from now that Moshiach not come, may G-d have mercy!

"And even when they cry out, "ad mosai" (how much longer?) they do it because they're told, for if they truly meant it and cried it out in truth, certainly certainly Moshiach would have already come!"

What happened just the other night at the Siyum Ha'Shas, when thousands of Jews gathered and were so inspired? Did any of them think it was just impossible for Moshiach not to come then and there, or did they think Moshiach could possibly come the next day, or the day after that?

do we REALLY want Moshiach?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 1:25 pm

I'm not talking about us, I'm talking about the Zadikim of previous generation.
THEY had emuna & betahon!

why didn't the rent tzaddik get his household together & go to greet Mashiah?

or during the many terrible moments in our historythere was not 1 person who wanted good enough?

gryp

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 1:38 pm

1 person by himself doesnt have the power to bring Moshiach....
otherwise, Moshiach would have been here long ago.
Klal Yisroel has to want Moshiach, and if Hashem sees we dont, why should He bring it?
Sad

what a world we live in...

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 1:47 pm

Quote:

1 person by himself doesnt have the power to bring Moshiach....

so during the destructions or Purim time they didn't want Mashiah?

yehudis

Fri, Mar 04 2005, 4:35 pm

Motek wrote:

here's a short and wonderful piece by Tzvi Freeman that directly responds to the question - do we sometimes get a no when we pray? if not, so where are the results?

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....07463

I didn't understand this essay. What does it mean exactly? I mean, if you are praying for a person to get well and the person dies, how can you say that the answer wasn't no?

Quote:

Given that what Hashem does is always good, why do we make requests at all?

because He told us to, it's a mitzva

Right, but why did He tell us to? I guess what I am asking is: 1)Is there a difference between Hashem's will and a human being's will? 2) If there is a difference, is that a bad thing and should we work on removing it? 3) If we should work on making our will the same as Hashem's will (Pirkei Avos, don't have time to find the quote), why do we pray from our point of view for the things that we want?

1stimer

Sat, Mar 05 2005, 1:45 pm

Quote:

Given that what Hashem does is always good, why do we make requests at all?

Because through the process of tefillah a person is supposed to change himself so that what was good/not good for him before is no longer applicable because he is now a different person.

About wanting moshiach. There is a story from the chofetz chaim:

A community wanted a certain rabbi (I think it was brisk) to become their Rav. He refused until he was told that there was ten thousand jews waiting for him to become their rav. When the cc heard this he said, 'is moshiach less merciful, it must mean that there aren't even ten thousand jews who really want moshiach.

And I don't think that shouting 'we want moshiach now' and putting it on big stickers everywhere equates with really wanting moshiach.

Also, it is one of the four questions that we will be asked when we get 'up there' - sipisah leyeshua were you waiting for redemption.

Motek

Tue, Mar 08 2005, 5:24 pm

yehudis wrote:

I didn't understand this essay. What does it mean exactly? I mean, if you are praying for a person to get well and the person dies, how can you say that the answer wasn't no?

over Shabbos we discussed this and, as always, there are layers and levels

(though I see the discussion on ambition has been diverted to prayer, I'd like to get it back to ambition)

in the sefer Derech Mitzvosecha of the Tzemach Tzedek (3rd Lubavitcher Rebbe), in shoresh mitzvas ha'tefill, he says a person can daven and get a no.

also, we see in Melachim that Shlomo asked that gentiles' prayers be responded to with a yes, bec. they don't have the faith Jews have, whereas he did not ask that the same happen for Jews.

so what's the story and how does it fit with Freeman's article

the way it was explained to me is, all are true (not surprisingly ...), for like you point out, and it's obvious to us all, we don't always get what we pray for

so on the level of simple reality as we know it and experience it, we definitely do not get everything we want (which we knew before we started this discussion!)

however, a deeper understanding of what's going on, which we don't see with our physical eyes, is as Freeman explains, a prayer expressed by a physical being results in a physical answer, albeit one not necessarily visible to us right now, though we will get to see it

as for your questios about "will" - maybe you want to post them in your new thread on Ratzon

Quote:

And I don't think that shouting 'we want moshiach now' and putting it on big stickers everywhere equates with really wanting moshiach.

it definitely doesn't equate, but what it does is raise our consciousness which is a first step

it's up to us, that is ... if we really want it ... to pursue it beyond that level

Page 3 of 4

Previous 1 2 3 4 Next