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When even Muslims defend our interests but we don't
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amother


 

Post Thu, Aug 19 2010, 4:14 pm
This is from a random Muslim blog.

Quote:
From someone who has had islam influence their life since their youth, I still do not understand why the "ground zero" mosque's grand opening is on september 11th 2011. what the f*ck has this country come to. that day is meant to remember those who had their lives taken away, and those people only.

I could go on, but I just won't. I know the beauty of living in america is that we have freedom of religion, among other rights to practice. but why the HELL would you put the GRAND OPENING on THAT day?!

sometime's it's things like these that make me resent my participation in the islam faith.


How come even them see it, but not some of ours? Sad
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 19 2010, 4:26 pm
Because we have a gift/curse -- constantly questioning ourselves. Sometimes it's a gift and sometimes it's a curse. These days....
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 19 2010, 4:30 pm
Because I recognize that freedom means giving other people freedom to do things I don't approve of in order to protect my own freedom.

Also, if we took the lone opinion of a random Jew, you could find someone who says something opposite of what most Jews feel. Does the same still apply? What about if its someone from Neturei Karta or Reform?
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small bean




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 19 2010, 4:31 pm
I think bec. Americans are constantly trying to defend the Muslims. that we close our eyes...

we live in a liberal country - where everyone is out to get us... by defending everyone else...
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 19 2010, 4:54 pm
small bean wrote:
I think bec. Americans are constantly trying to defend the Muslims. that we close our eyes...

we live in a liberal country - where everyone is out to get us... by defending everyone else...


Actually, both the executive director of one of the groups spearheading the project, as well as the Imam involved, have flatly denied that the center is slated to open on September 11.

I understand, viscerally, the objection to building a mosque -- well, actually an Islamic Cultural Center -- near Ground Zero. But sometimes, we have to go beyond those reactions, and think about what is really right or wrong.

The proposed site is NEAR, not on, the old WTC site. About 2 blocks away, at the former site of Burlington Coat Factory. At the same distance, you can find McDonalds and Burger King. New York Dolls Gentlemen's Club. OTB. Lilly O'Brien's Bar. And a cholov yisrael pizza place. This isn't *hallowed ground* (and I speak as a person who doesn't think there should be any rebuilding on the actual WTC site). Its a run-down neighborhood.

The US is built on freedom of religion. And in order to ensure that we have freedom of religion, we need to ensure others do as well, even if we disagree with them.
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small bean




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 19 2010, 5:06 pm
Barbara wrote:
small bean wrote:
I think bec. Americans are constantly trying to defend the Muslims. that we close our eyes...

we live in a liberal country - where everyone is out to get us... by defending everyone else...


Actually, both the executive director of one of the groups spearheading the project, as well as the Imam involved, have flatly denied that the center is slated to open on September 11.

I understand, viscerally, the objection to building a mosque -- well, actually an Islamic Cultural Center -- near Ground Zero. But sometimes, we have to go beyond those reactions, and think about what is really right or wrong.

The proposed site is NEAR, not on, the old WTC site. About 2 blocks away, at the former site of Burlington Coat Factory. At the same distance, you can find McDonalds and Burger King. New York Dolls Gentlemen's Club. OTB. Lilly O'Brien's Bar. And a cholov yisrael pizza place. This isn't *hallowed ground* (and I speak as a person who doesn't think there should be any rebuilding on the actual WTC site). Its a run-down neighborhood.

The US is built on freedom of religion. And in order to ensure that we have freedom of religion, we need to ensure others do as well, even if we disagree with them.
I agree with freedom of religion and I don't think we can make it illegal...

but we all have zoning rights and if it makes the ppl who actually suffered in 9/11 by loosing ppl they loved. then according to zoning rights these ppl can fight it... just like I can fight if they put a cell phone tower accross the street from me...

I didn't either hear the opening on 9/11, but I just think that my response is why we don't see things as wrong...
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morah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 19 2010, 5:21 pm
small bean wrote:
Barbara wrote:
small bean wrote:
I think bec. Americans are constantly trying to defend the Muslims. that we close our eyes...

we live in a liberal country - where everyone is out to get us... by defending everyone else...


Actually, both the executive director of one of the groups spearheading the project, as well as the Imam involved, have flatly denied that the center is slated to open on September 11.

I understand, viscerally, the objection to building a mosque -- well, actually an Islamic Cultural Center -- near Ground Zero. But sometimes, we have to go beyond those reactions, and think about what is really right or wrong.

The proposed site is NEAR, not on, the old WTC site. About 2 blocks away, at the former site of Burlington Coat Factory. At the same distance, you can find McDonalds and Burger King. New York Dolls Gentlemen's Club. OTB. Lilly O'Brien's Bar. And a cholov yisrael pizza place. This isn't *hallowed ground* (and I speak as a person who doesn't think there should be any rebuilding on the actual WTC site). Its a run-down neighborhood.

The US is built on freedom of religion. And in order to ensure that we have freedom of religion, we need to ensure others do as well, even if we disagree with them.
I agree with freedom of religion and I don't think we can make it illegal...

but we all have zoning rights and if it makes the ppl who actually suffered in 9/11 by loosing ppl they loved. then according to zoning rights these ppl can fight it... just like I can fight if they put a cell phone tower accross the street from me...

I didn't either hear the opening on 9/11, but I just think that my response is why we don't see things as wrong...


Zoning rights are not based on people's feelings. They're based on considerations such as noise and traffic. Does it hurt to see a mosque go up so close to where adherents of the Muslim faith murdered 3000 innocent people? Yes. But that has no bearing on the legality of the issue. Aside from the fact that giving a mosque a hard time opens up a whole Pandora's box that we would not want to confront the next time we want to build a shul, I think a lot of people need to learn to accept that legality and morality are NOT interchangeable. There are a lot of things that I am against from a moral perspective (such as gay marriage, or abortion, or yes, building a mosque so close to ground zero) but I understand that based on this pesky little document called the Constitution, I cannot realistically legislate against those things.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 19 2010, 5:34 pm
small bean wrote:
Barbara wrote:
small bean wrote:
I think bec. Americans are constantly trying to defend the Muslims. that we close our eyes...

we live in a liberal country - where everyone is out to get us... by defending everyone else...


Actually, both the executive director of one of the groups spearheading the project, as well as the Imam involved, have flatly denied that the center is slated to open on September 11.

I understand, viscerally, the objection to building a mosque -- well, actually an Islamic Cultural Center -- near Ground Zero. But sometimes, we have to go beyond those reactions, and think about what is really right or wrong.

The proposed site is NEAR, not on, the old WTC site. About 2 blocks away, at the former site of Burlington Coat Factory. At the same distance, you can find McDonalds and Burger King. New York Dolls Gentlemen's Club. OTB. Lilly O'Brien's Bar. And a cholov yisrael pizza place. This isn't *hallowed ground* (and I speak as a person who doesn't think there should be any rebuilding on the actual WTC site). Its a run-down neighborhood.

The US is built on freedom of religion. And in order to ensure that we have freedom of religion, we need to ensure others do as well, even if we disagree with them.
I agree with freedom of religion and I don't think we can make it illegal...

but we all have zoning rights and if it makes the ppl who actually suffered in 9/11 by loosing ppl they loved. then according to zoning rights these ppl can fight it... just like I can fight if they put a cell phone tower accross the street from me...

I didn't either hear the opening on 9/11, but I just think that my response is why we don't see things as wrong...


Ummm, no. 45 Park Place is located in a C6-4 zoning classification ("General Central Commercial") where houses of worship are allowed "as of right." IOW, no approval needed. Assuming that this particular proposed house of worship meets the setback, height, and bulk requirements of the Lower Manhattan special zoning district, the city's denial of a zoning compliance permit would be flagrantly illegal. Oh, it would probably also violate the federal the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (passed in 2000).
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 1:26 am
The right to build is not in question, it is the morality of the act`and the intentions of the builders that is in question.

Moreover, the right to protest is part of that pesky ten. Those who are protesting can continue to do so. So is the right to free speech, including making disparaging marks about Mohammend depicting him as a bear or pig or whatever, opening up a gay bar next door, or opening an anti-Jihad center across the street.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 3:08 am
By the way as Michelle Malkin stated

Quote:
There’s no official line around the WTC site where “ground zero” ends, however I’m fairly certain that if the Associated Press office was two blocks away and hit by debris on 9/11, we’d be reading AP stories about “the horror we experienced at Ground Zero” to this day.


The building in question was hit by debris. It IS ground zero by my definition of the word. At least be honest.
It isn't WTC, but it is ground zero.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 3:15 am
B/c we have a constitutionally protected of freedom of religion while we don't have a constitutionally protected right not to be offended. You can be offended, fine, but you have to respect their right to build it.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 3:50 am
We have a constitutionally protected right to protest against what offends us.
Which is what people are doing.

And you are right. We don't have a constitutionally protected right to be not offended. That applies to Muslims who oppose those who say Mohammed the Pig.

So those who protest can use that form of protest if they so wish; walk by the Mosque with MOHAMMED THE PIG t-shirts, put up a gay bar right next door.

And if you say that it is dangerous to do so, then the Mosque/cultural center shouldn't be built.

Plain and simple.
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small bean




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 9:40 am
I hear your point about zoning rights... and I agree that legally there's nothing anyone can do...

I don't understand the NY Govt is wililng to work with them to find them a place that is less offensive, same affordable etc and their not willing to budge - why doesn't that say something to all you who couldn't care less?
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 9:46 am
small bean wrote:
I hear your point about zoning rights... and I agree that legally there's nothing anyone can do...

I don't understand the NY Govt is wililng to work with them to find them a place that is less offensive, same affordable etc and their not willing to budge - why doesn't that say something to all you who couldn't care less?


Because they legally have a right to the property. Moving is saying "Muslims shouldnt have a community center near WTC" and there is no reason for them to make that statement.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 9:51 am
HindaRochel wrote:
The right to build is not in question, it is the morality of the act`and the intentions of the builders that is in question.

Moreover, the right to protest is part of that pesky ten. Those who are protesting can continue to do so. So is the right to free speech, including making disparaging marks about Mohammend depicting him as a bear or pig or whatever, opening up a gay bar next door, or opening an anti-Jihad center across the street.


I just have to say, the fact that someone who lives in Israel can make a reference to Greg Gutfeld -- GREG GUTFELD!!! Sorry, Greg, I can't see you opening a gay bar -- just proves what a small world this has become.

While I absolutely agree that people have the right to protest, I cannot agree with their premise in this case.
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small bean




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 10:17 am
I think the main reason people are protesting is because of the main guy who is in charge... he has said many anti american comments which bother many... I think if it would be a more moderate muslim group ppl wouldnt care a bit.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 10:22 am
Quote:
[quote="Barbara"]
HindaRochel wrote:
The right to build is not in question, it is the morality of the act`and the intentions of the builders that is in question.

Moreover, the right to protest is part of that pesky ten. Those who are protesting can continue to do so. So is the right to free speech, including making disparaging marks about Mohammend depicting him as a bear or pig or whatever, opening up a gay bar next door, or opening an anti-Jihad center across the street.


I just have to say, the fact that someone who lives in Israel can make a reference to Greg Gutfeld -- GREG GUTFELD!!! Sorry, Greg, I can't see you opening a gay bar -- just proves what a small world this has become.


Quote:
I tweet, therefore I am! (or fb etc. hey, we do have Internet and newspapers here you know.)

While I absolutely agree that people have the right to protest, I cannot agree with their premise in this case.


See, I kind of think that agreeing with their premise has anything to do with anyone's right to protest. It is in fact obvious in most cases, save for people who protest against elephants wearing shoes or other absurdities, that there are actually people who disagree with them.

As I said, Mosque/cultural center I don't really care. I don't believe they are necessarily nice kind Muslims who just want to share, nor do I necessarily believe they are terrorists in sheep's clothing. I don't like the Iman an do not think he is a nice guy at all, but that isn't here nor there.

The fact that many of the 9/11 families do not want the M/C is enough for me.

I'll give you another example. The store here on the Yishuv has gone from private owned to public owned. There are changes, most of which neither impress nor greatly upset me. One talked of change is expanding the Makolet and increasing hours, both of which I would like!

BUT the people in the area do not want that. So if it came to a vote, since it will not negatively impact upon me, I'd would vote to keep it as it is or MOVE the makolet (if there were such an option) to an area where such thing as traffic and noise will not greatly affect anyone (there are areas). Most places it would move would make it more difficult for me, but you know what? I can take a slight decrease in my pleasure if the overall effect for most people is good.

The overall effect of leaving the Makolet where it is and increasing size and hours is significantly detrimental to those living in the area.

meanwhile:
saw50st8 wrote:
Quote:
Because they legally have a right to the property. Moving is saying "Muslims shouldnt have a community center near WTC" and there is no reason for them to make that statement.


No, moving it, if not forced to by the State unless the M/C were in violation of some law or another, would say that the Iman and company respected the 9/11 families and had compassion for them.

Sometimes respecting others is about not getting your way. In terms of compassion, I feel much greater compassion for the families of 9/11 then Muslims wanting to build a M/C.
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chavs




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 11:01 am
Barbara wrote:
small bean wrote:
I think bec. Americans are constantly trying to defend the Muslims. that we close our eyes...

we live in a liberal country - where everyone is out to get us... by defending everyone else...


Actually, both the executive director of one of the groups spearheading the project, as well as the Imam involved, have flatly denied that the center is slated to open on September 11.

I understand, viscerally, the objection to building a mosque -- well, actually an Islamic Cultural Center -- near Ground Zero. But sometimes, we have to go beyond those reactions, and think about what is really right or wrong.

The proposed site is NEAR, not on, the old WTC site. About 2 blocks away, at the former site of Burlington Coat Factory. At the same distance, you can find McDonalds and Burger King. New York Dolls Gentlemen's Club. OTB. Lilly O'Brien's Bar. And a cholov yisrael pizza place. This isn't *hallowed ground* (and I speak as a person who doesn't think there should be any rebuilding on the actual WTC site). Its a run-down neighborhood.

The US is built on freedom of religion. And in order to ensure that we have freedom of religion, we need to ensure others do as well, even if we disagree with them.


Thumbs Up
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 11:20 am
small bean wrote:
I think the main reason people are protesting is because of the main guy who is in charge... he has said many anti american comments which bother many... I think if it would be a more moderate muslim group ppl wouldnt care a bit.


That's a sound bite from Fox News -- on which the Iman has appeared, btw -- not something based on reality.

"Imam Feisal has participated at the Aspen Institute in Muslim-Christian-Jewish working groups looking at ways to promote greater religious tolerance," Walter Isaacson, head of The Aspen Institute told the Huffington Post. "He has consistently denounced radical Islam and terrorism, and promoted a moderate and tolerant Islam. Some of this work was done under the auspices of his own group, the Cordoba Initiative." He has apparently worked with the FBI, and with the Bush-era state department after 9/11.

Now there was this comment on 60 Minutes -- "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened," he said by way of explaining the attacks. "But the United States' policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." I found the comment pretty darned offensive. Of course, I found it equally offensive when Glenn Beck said almost the same thing. But I'm not real worried about either of them recruiting for Al Queda.
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small bean




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 20 2010, 11:27 am
Columnist Jonathan Rauch wrote that Abdul Rauf gave a "mixed, muddled, muttered" message after 9/11.[17] Nineteen days after the attacks, he told CBS’s 60 Minutes that fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam. Rauch said that the message was mixed, however, because when then asked if the U.S. deserved the attacks, Rauf answered: "I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States’ policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."[18][19][4] Rauch observed. [17]
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