Are things right because Hashem commanded them

sequoia

Fri, Aug 27 2010, 2:09 am

or did He command them because they are right?

If He had commanded us to murder, would murder be right? Is His nature such that He could not command wrong things, or does He define and decide what is right or wrong?

Is there something immutable in the universe, apart from Hashem?

What do you think?

LiLIsraeli

Fri, Aug 27 2010, 2:16 am

Interesting question.

If Hashem would command things because they are right, wouldn't that mean that there is some outside factor determining right or wrong, other than Hashem?

From what I've read - mostly Derech Hashem and Rabbi Tatz's books - the chachamim say that Hashem is the direct cause of everything.

Oh, and Rabbi Kelemen, in his book Permission to Believe, also says that Hashem is the One who defines what is right and what is wrong.

joy613

Fri, Aug 27 2010, 3:46 am

I don't think we can say that Hashem commanded things because they are right. He commanded them, therefore they are right.

Does sending a mother bird away so you can snatch her babies sound right? Not to me. But it is right. Because it's a commandment.

But really what are you defining as "right"? Right according to society?

If Hashem would have commanded us to murder, than murder would be right. The reason we are convinced it is wrong is because it is forbidden in the Torah (and in society as well). But if it would be allowed, it wouldn't be wrong. Even if the rest of the world says it is wrong.

Quote:

Is His nature such that He could not command wrong things,

If He commanded us to do something, it is inherently right. The term a "command a wrong thing" sounds like an oxymoron.

entropy

Fri, Aug 27 2010, 4:05 am

sequoia wrote:

I think "what Hashem commanded" and "what's right" are synonyms. It's not that one follows from the other, but that they are the same thing.

marina

Fri, Aug 27 2010, 8:30 am

Timeless question Wink

Morality does not have to be based on religion, but sometimes it is.

A good way to think about this is to ask yourself if you became an atheist tomorrow, would you feel free to murder, rape and steal? Or would you still have a moral compass guiding you?

saw50st8

Fri, Aug 27 2010, 9:15 am

louche wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

We are commanded to murder at times (like Amalek).

By definition, that is not murder.

Why not? Isn't murder = killing someone? Even if its "right"?

HindaRochel

Fri, Aug 27 2010, 9:34 am

saw50st8 wrote:

louche wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

We are commanded to murder at times (like Amalek).

By definition, that is not murder.

Why not? Isn't murder = killing someone? Even if its "right"?

No murder is the unlawful killing of a human being.

louche

Fri, Aug 27 2010, 9:35 am

saw50st8 wrote:

louche wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

We are commanded to murder at times (like Amalek).

By definition, that is not murder.

Why not? Isn't murder = killing someone? Even if its "right"?

No. Murder is by definition unlawful killing, usually with malice aforethought. Lawful killing, such as doing away with a criminal guilty of a capital offense, is execution.

You may be thinking of the tradition that a Beis din that executed one person in 70 years is called Kotlani, incorrectly translated as "Murderous". Kotlani actually means "Fatal", not "murderous".

Poor Am Yisrael. The trouble we have endured because of sloppy translation and inaccurate understanding of language.

HindaRochel

Fri, Aug 27 2010, 9:46 am

marina wrote:

Timeless question Wink

The problem is not that one wouldn't also avoid murdering, raping and stealing if one was a moral atheist. The matter would be what is considered murder, rape, stealing. Euthanasia? Murder or not. Is it rape if the person is willing but is also mentally [crazy]? Is it stealing to pick a grape from the tree you are harvesting (as a worker) but that isn't yours?

Isramom8

Sat, Aug 28 2010, 6:47 pm

Sending away the mother bird is IF you want the babies - but you are not forced to take the babies to begin with.

Things are right becuase Hashem decided so.