Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
Which is worse?
1  2  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother


 

Post Sat, Sep 04 2010, 11:30 pm
Which is worse - having bad shalmon bayis or suffering through infertility?

I've been married just over three years and have been TTC one year, with 1 1/2 (unrelated, long story) miscarriages behind me, within six months of each other. It's been so hard, and so painful. But that's another story.

B''H, my DH and I have wonderful, incredibly, amazing SB. My DH is a very special person and I give most of that credit to him. I thank Hashem every day for sending me this man.

Sometimes I think - would I rather have bad SB, but have children?

Families with kids can have all sorts of problems - financial, marital, etc. But no one sees that. All they see if the wife pregnant every other year, beautiful children. There is no shame in something people cannot see.

Infertility, on the other hand....everyone sees that. No one knows about the miscarriages. No one knows about waiting for almost two years on BC. No one knows about the issues. All they see are a couple, a very happy couple, yes, but with no pregnant belly or baby in a stroller. I feel ashamed. There is shame in not having children.

So sometimes, when I'm at my very darkest hour, I wonder what it would be like to have a difficult marriage, but at least - at least I would have my children. And then no one would see.
Back to top

enneamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 04 2010, 11:51 pm
Hmmm....that is really a tough one. I'm really not sure which is worse.

There is the shame issue with infertility, but on the other hand, a couple/family without shalom bayis has no happiness. Yes, everything looks good, but on the inside it's hollow. They may have kids, but the kids are probably miserable.

But I also understand that infertility causes a tremendous amount of pain and I'm sure that affects the couple's happiness.

I guess really only Hashem knows. He gives everyone their "peckel" that their neshamos chose before they were even born.

OP, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. Crying Hug
Back to top

life'sgreat




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 04 2010, 11:55 pm
It's a very very interesting comparison, but the question you asked isn't the right question. It should be: Which is worse - for others to see your difficulty, or for the difficulty to be very private? Because in essence, that's what the comparison is about. The next question would be - which is worse: for a couple to be dealing with a very painful situation, or for children to be suffering every single day, aside from the adults.
Back to top

bubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 04 2010, 11:57 pm
I'm so sorry for your pain. I pray this year you see all the happiness & joy you want.

As far as your question goes, they are two such different elements it's like asking which fruits are nice...apples or oranges? That's not an answer, I know, but it's all I have. Hug
Back to top

StrawberrySmoothie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 12:04 am
Interesting.

I have heard the question posed as: would I rather be in Shidduchim for x amount of years and then get married and have children quickly? OR get married quickly and have infertility for x amount of years?

But one thing I want to add about your comparison is that not always is bad Shalom Bayis suffered privately. Meaning, there are men who emotionally abuse their wives in public or whatnot. Also, if a woman decides to leave her bad marriage, its public knowledge when they get divorced and people realize they had marital problems.
Back to top

grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 12:07 am
OP, I am sorry that you are going through the pain of infertility. I know from personal experience how difficult it is.

However, I don't get the part about the shame. To me shame is a consequence of having done something wrong, something bad. A person should be ashamed of commiting aveirot, of speaking lashon hara, of hurting another person, of not keeeping mitzvot but why would you be ashamed of something you have no control over?

Try not to be so concerned with what other people think. It's just not important. In my experience, people give a fleeting thought to other peoples issues and then go on with their own lives. Not to mention that half of them are either impressed or envious of your great DH.

I"YH, you probably have a good chance to wind up having children and may Hashem grant you your wish in the coming year.

Shalom Bayit is a major bracha from Hashem. Serious lack of Shalom Bayit is hell for the couple and their children.
Back to top

mini




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 1:17 am
Thank god for having a good husband
and im yertza hashem you will be helped with
children just keep thanking hashem for whAT U HAVE
Back to top

life'sgreat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 1:27 am
Having dealt with PIF and now SIF, I can only tell you what my personal opinion is about what's worse. Although pain is pain is pain and it's really not possible to compare. We need to keep that in mind.

I think that pain, if it's shared, is already easier than pain that comes along with utter and complete loneliness. Pain that you yourself experience, is easier than watching children experience pain. Especially your own children. Dealing with IF, especially PIF, painful as it was/is, there's a spouse to cry to and with. There's support, in whichever way. Dealing with SB issues makes one feel extremely, utterly and desperately alone. There's no one to talk to, cry to, and/or share it with. And NO ONE knows. While that might mitigate the shame factor, it also makes the loneliness even worse. There's also bigger shame in actually sharing something that's so hidden from the public eye with someone. And watching children suffer because of their parents' SB issues is so very painful. I can't imagine any mother choosing to put their children in such a painful position.

I also want to comment on the shame factor. There's absolutely nothing shameful about IF. It's painful, very much so. It sometimes can leave one feeling really stupid and put them in awkward positions. But they didn't choose it, didn't do anything to deserve it and have no reason to be ashamed about having been given this challenge.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 1:27 am
here is the other side of the coin.

I have fertility problems. it took a few years to have my first.


I also have sholom bayis problems. they come up every now and then.


nobody knew that we were going through fertility treatments as it was "only" 2 years and nobody knows that I have some minor SB problems because we keep it between me and my husband.


so you ask which would someone rather? I am going to say a big NEITHER. I wish that I was able to get pregnant right away and that I did not have any sholom bayis problems.


sorry OP but I dont like it when people try to compare one miyla with another. infertility is infertility and SB problems is SB problems. they are two totally different worlds and it truly sucks to have either. be happy that you husband BH is wonderful and I am truly sorry that you have had many fertility problems, but try not to compare one with the other.
Back to top

gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 1:35 am
op, everyone has their challenges. yup, even mrs. aidel maidel knaidel who is married to rabbi tzaddik, who has 5 children in 5 years of marriage, who keeps a spotless home, and cooks 6- course suppers every night, who looks and acts like mrs perfect, even she has got problems. so, no shame in your having struggles. everyone has struggles.
Back to top

shosh




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 2:12 am
As one who was blessed with many children but a very sad marriage, I have also asked myself the same question many times. I have even tried to explain it to myself that Hashem made my pregnancies and births so easy bc He knew that I was going to end up suffering so badly in my marriage. So He compensated me with eight beautiful children, ka"h. And in my case, the demise of my marriage was all too public and embarrassing for everyone concerned. So it's not necessarily true that such tests remain unknown.

But it's a hard question to answer:
- If you have no children, there's the infinite pain of not having a child to love, of not knowing the feeling of nurturing a small baby who grows into a child and then into an adult. And it's true that nothing can ever replace the pure love for and of a child. When you don't have that, such a feeling of lacking can only be guessed at by those who haven't felt it.
- If you either have no husband or your husband doesn't love you, the loneliness is unfathomable. And when you have been through a divorce there is often that nagging thought that you may never experience a hug again ever, never have another adult to share your life and your thoughts with. Sometimes those fears prove groundless, but sometimes they don't. And the terrible loneliness and the feelings of rejection that this creates are unfathomable to those who haven't experienced them.

And the absence of the love of a child is terribly painful, and the absence of a real, caring zivug who is part of your life is painful. Can both such types of suffering be compared? Unless you know someone who has been through both, it's hard to say. I would say that those who undergo either kind of pain suffer equally but in different ways. And in their different ways, the frustration and emptiness can be just as great in either situation.

Would I have preferred to have been married to a faithful man who loved me, but had no children? Difficult question to answer. The fact that I have my children and that I love them so much makes it easier to accept that I didn't throw away 15 years of my life on a worthless, unfaithful dh for nothing. And I am happy I have them. That is beyond question. But everything in life has its negative and positive sides. Single parenting is so hard and the issues and conflicts that my kids continue to go through as a result of the divorce and loads of issues around it are terrible. But then again, my kids quite honestly are my main reason for living right now. And they do have the potential to have a better life than I did.

I could go on like this for many paragraphs, but the bottom line of all this, I think, is that Hashem gives all of us tests and He knows which tests to give us. For me, the test of childlessness would have apparently been too great, yet I have gone through the test of a bad marriage and have learned to hunt alone. For you, the test of a bad marriage may have been too great.

But you are young yet, and the fact that you are in a loving marriage will probably help you through your current test. My heartfelt brocha for you during the coming year is that Hashem, who sees all broken hearts, will grant you the great gift of a child and you will no longer need to know which tzores is greater because you will no longer have to experience either of them.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 2:57 am
amother wrote:
Which is worse - having bad shalmon bayis or suffering through infertility?

I've been married just over three years and have been TTC one year, with 1 1/2 (unrelated, long story) miscarriages behind me, within six months of each other. It's been so hard, and so painful. But that's another story.

B''H, my DH and I have wonderful, incredibly, amazing SB. My DH is a very special person and I give most of that credit to him. I thank Hashem every day for sending me this man.

Sometimes I think - would I rather have bad SB, but have children?

Families with kids can have all sorts of problems - financial, marital, etc. But no one sees that. All they see if the wife pregnant every other year, beautiful children. There is no shame in something people cannot see.

Infertility, on the other hand....everyone sees that. No one knows about the miscarriages. No one knows about waiting for almost two years on BC. No one knows about the issues. All they see are a couple, a very happy couple, yes, but with no pregnant belly or baby in a stroller. I feel ashamed. There is shame in not having children.

So sometimes, when I'm at my very darkest hour, I wonder what it would be like to have a difficult marriage, but at least - at least I would have my children. And then no one would see.



I dont Chas V Shalom want to bee insensitive to you on slichos night. But this has to be the most insane thing I ever heard. You would rwant children to be born into a family with constant fighting ????

Hashem should give you children this year ... If c"v, he doesnt worst case scenario, you can always adopt or be a foster parent and have a happy family. As opposed to a hellish nitemare you cant imagine. Dont you have divorced friends or relatives...
Back to top

life'sgreat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 3:32 am
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
Which is worse - having bad shalmon bayis or suffering through infertility?

I've been married just over three years and have been TTC one year, with 1 1/2 (unrelated, long story) miscarriages behind me, within six months of each other. It's been so hard, and so painful. But that's another story.

B''H, my DH and I have wonderful, incredibly, amazing SB. My DH is a very special person and I give most of that credit to him. I thank Hashem every day for sending me this man.

Sometimes I think - would I rather have bad SB, but have children?

Families with kids can have all sorts of problems - financial, marital, etc. But no one sees that. All they see if the wife pregnant every other year, beautiful children. There is no shame in something people cannot see.

Infertility, on the other hand....everyone sees that. No one knows about the miscarriages. No one knows about waiting for almost two years on BC. No one knows about the issues. All they see are a couple, a very happy couple, yes, but with no pregnant belly or baby in a stroller. I feel ashamed. There is shame in not having children.

So sometimes, when I'm at my very darkest hour, I wonder what it would be like to have a difficult marriage, but at least - at least I would have my children. And then no one would see.



I dont Chas V Shalom want to bee insensitive to you on slichos night. But this has to be the most insane thing I ever heard. You would rwant children to be born into a family with constant fighting ????

Hashem should give you children this year ... If c"v, he doesnt worst case scenario, you can always adopt or be a foster parent and have a happy family. As opposed to a hellish nitemare you cant imagine. Dont you have divorced friends or relatives...

While I can agree with your post, I think the bolded is so extremely out of place.
Back to top

Ribbie Danzinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 3:53 am
point to consider: When Hashem asked David Hamelech which he preferred, hunger, war or plague, (in personal terms this could be translated into poverty, problems with SB or physical illness) DhM replied,
אֶפְּלָה נָּא בְיַד ה' כִּי רַבִּים רַחֲמָיו מְאֹד וּבְיַד אָדָם אַל אֶפֹּל

"I will fall into Hashem's hand, for his compassion is very great and into the hand of man I shall not fall."

Although infertility is a very painful (but not shameful) situation, you are in Hashem's hands and "Hashem's salvation comes in the blink of an eye."
Back to top

Ribbie Danzinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 3:54 am
point to consider: When Hashem asked David Hamelech which he preferred, hunger, war or plague, (in personal terms this could be translated into poverty, problems with SB or physical illness) DhM replied,
אֶפְּלָה נָּא בְיַד ה' כִּי רַבִּים רַחֲמָיו מְאֹד וּבְיַד אָדָם אַל אֶפֹּל

"I will fall into Hashem's hand, for his compassion is very great and into the hand of man I shall not fall."

Although infertility is a very painful (but not shameful) situation, you are in Hashem's hands and "Hashem's salvation comes in the blink of an eye."
Back to top

amother


 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 11:23 am
OP here.

Thank you all for your sensitive and caring replies!

To those who think I actually want to bring kids into a bad marriage - no, er, of course I don't. Or to those who say I can't compare the two - maybe not. But to me, blessed with one thing but struggling with another (as Shosh said, she thinks about this as well, but from the opposite side), I wonder what it would be like to have the other. I have SB, but I don't have children. Just sometimes, I wonder what it would be like to have children, and questionable SB. But wondering or thinking about something doesn't make it magically happen. Hey, if it did, I would have kids by now!

But anyway, thanks to all who took the time to respond. I lost my latest pregnancy just a few weeks ago and the yom tovim make things extra raw, I think. I'm trying very very hard to work on myself and take this as a lesson and have a meaningful R''H, but ya know. Struggles are struggles for a reason.

And StrawberrySmoothie, I have heard that question posed before, of dating for many years but having kids right away vs. getting married right away but waiting for children. I, personally, am glad I'm the latter . But I'm sure some people would chose the former. I would rather suffer with my husband through IF knowing that at least I have my DH. Being single - though I did get married young, and didn't date for very long - was a very hard process and I think for me much more difficult. The wondering and waiting and feeling like everything is out of your control is very similar to IF, but then I had no one to share it with in the same way. But that's just me.

I guess Hashem knows your limits. When I was pregnant the second time, I was afraid that Hashem would have me lose this baby, because I knew that I could handle it (my first mis was a crazy situation and not that emotionally devastating). Well, I did. But I'm not sure I can go through that again. Hopefully, I will not be tested again. Amen.

Hashem should bless us all with our wishes for the new year, and keep everyone happy and healthy. Smile
Back to top

life'sgreat




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 12:31 pm
Crying I'm so sorry for your losses. The ache is so deep and raw, as you said, around YT time. May Hashem send you a nechama soon. Hug
Back to top

amother


 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 12:45 pm
Quote:
Families with kids can have all sorts of problems - financial, marital, etc. But no one sees that.


You really think?

Quote:
There is shame in not having children.


Huh? why is there a shame in having what G-d sends you?
Back to top

shosh




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 1:07 pm
amother wrote:
Quote:
Families with kids can have all sorts of problems - financial, marital, etc. But no one sees that.


You really think?

Quote:
There is shame in not having children.


Huh? why is there a shame in having what G-d sends you?


And I see that you're so ashamed of your insensitivity that you are amother!
Back to top

amother


 

Post Sun, Sep 05 2010, 1:12 pm
I've always thanked H' for having gotten pg right away and having had many beautiful, healthy children. I can imagine your pain but can't say that I've felt it - it must be soooo hard. I often see women in my community who IMO would have made terrific mothers and I ask myself, why doesn't H' grant them children? they would have been so loved! It seems to heartless and senseless as well, to me.

But, if you're asking, I'm willing to add my 2 cents form the other side of the fence. children can never really appreciate their mother, whereas your dh obviously does and will and will stand beside you also in later years, iyh. children grow up and move away. (and those of us unfortunate to have been in abusive marriages, the children can end up abusing their mother just as well - can't even begin to tell you how enormously painful that is.)

The bottom line is that each of us has to learn to thank H' for those blessings that he has granted us and to work on that minimizing our pain for what we don't have.
Back to top
Page 1 of 2 1  2  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions