I'm modern orthodox so I'm allowed

amother

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 2:25 am

Barbara wrote:

amother wrote:

Barbara wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

I have friends across the spectrum of Judaism.

Chareidi schools will teach that certain things fall within the realm of Halacha.

Modern Orthodox schools often avoid certain topics because they don't want to offend the parent body.

When someone says she does something because she's MO, most likely it's because she was never taught otherwise.

That's why it's important to judge everyone favorably. I would never tell anyone not to do something if they do it. That's the job of the shul Rabbi.

Ah, yes. You judge everyone favorably. Particularly those poor, deluded Modern Orthodox. Their rabbis are afraid to tell them that they should really be -- well, just like you. Since your rabbis have the monopoly on doing things right.

It cannot POSSIBLY be that there is a difference of opinion. Nooooooooooooooooo. Not at all possible. After all, every rabbi in the Talmud agreed; must be the same now.

As someone who is very close to several rabbis of large MO shuls in large MO communities, I can attest to the fact that there are things they believe are forbidden that they do not speak against because they don't see the point and they need to pick their battles. It is something that these MO rabbis I know struggle with to some degree. I am not talking about things like wearing stockings or not, but other aspects of modest dress that are for the most part considered universal standards-- like mini skirts and shorts above the knee, extremely short sleeves, hair covering (yes, most MO rabbis believe that hair covering in some form is required), wearing a bathing suit in mixed company (ie, mixed swimming), and also other things such as social kissing.

Yes, I am aware that there are MO rabbis who permit many things that most people don't. But I don't think it's so far off to say that a significant percentage of MO people who are doing things outside the halachic norm are not doing so based on a psak or a haskama, rather because this is the way they have always done things, or the it's the way their parents did it, and they never asked otherwise, and nobody told them otherwise, not because the rabbanim are officially in agreement with the practices, but because to them it's a lost cause and they would lose capital in other areas where they can have more of an effect. (And no, I do not mean that they are afraid of losing money and their jobs.)

It always amazes me how so many anonymous women are close friends with Modern Orthodox rabbis, all of whom confess to these women that they basically mislead their congregants about what is acceptable. Give us a couple of names, so I can email them and ask them if you're telling the truth.

They aren't my friends but close relatives. I grew up in this world. Think father and some uncles. Those who know me here will already be able to tell who I am, which doesn't bother me because they are friends, but when your close relatives are known community figures and you reveal their names and details about them under your screen name then maybe I'll PM you with mine. Or maybe tell us all your fathers name and some of his personal career struggles. Or maybe just tell us all your name. For now you can take my word or not, I know for you most of these things are a forgone conclusion based on what you believe and the rabbi (s?) you choose to expose yourself to. I don't think your beliefs are accurate for the rov of modern Orthodoxy though.

mirror

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 2:46 am

grace413 wrote:

The mikveh lady you mention needs to learn to be more discreet. I think that mentioning even the percentage of users is not tzanua. Maybe they are all on back to back BC pills and only have periods 3 or 4 times a year. Maybe the don't want to go to a mikvah where the mikvah lady talks too much and go elsewhere.

Thank you for the clarification.

I have friends who are meticulous with Mitzva observance who call themselves Modern Orthodox. However, I have one friend who calls herself modern orthodox, but "eats dairy out", meaning, does not keep kosher outside the home. It is wrong for this particular friend of mine to call herself Modern Orthodox in this case.

As mentioned on a previous thread, I have a second friend who identifies herself as Modern Orthodox, but her husband leaves work on Fridays after sunset, but still "keeps shabbos". Again, it is wrong for her to identify herself as Modern Orthodox when she is clearly not Orthodox.

The problem is that Modern Orthodox is too broad a term, and there are people who grew up Modern Orthodox who truly are not, but still identify themselves as such. Where do we draw the line? At what point do I have the right to turn to a friend and say, "The minimum is shabbos, Kashrus, and Taharas Hamishpacha"?????????????????

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 3:06 am

cookiecutter wrote:

Having read the first two pages of this topic, it seems like most people oversimplify the differences between MO and more right wing factions. Its not only a chumra contest or even a halacha contest. It's a fundamental difference in understanding the role of Judaism. In right wing circles, you exist to the extent that you are perceived to be religious (or potentially religious). In modern orthodoxy, Judaism is incumbent on an already existing world filled with people whose existence is justified with or without even the binding aspects of tznius minutae. If you think about it in those terms, both sides make a little more sense.

says you.

why does it always have to come down to this? that MO are not really living torah filled lives? and only more, as you put it, right wing factions are? that is the most insulting thing to say.

I am a modern orthodox woman and just because I may read newspapers or go to the movies or not cover my hair fully does NOT in any way mean that my life is not filled with the torah way of living. and dont think otherwise.

ally

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 3:36 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

grace413 wrote:

I think every sect of Judaism has people would best be described as 'culturally' Lubavitch/Yeshivish/MO- they affiliate with a certain sect without actually practicing the specific behaviours associated with that group. For example, the 'hot Chanis' everyone loves so much. In the case of Modern Orthodoxy, it gets more complicated because most people have little understanding of the actual philosophy of the movement and just see it as Judaism lite.

ora_43

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 5:59 am

I think it's common for MO community rabbis to avoid telling their congregants to do a particular thing if they know that people are unlikely to listen and it will only create ill-will. The same is true of any smart rabbis, it happens in the dati leumi and yeshivish and hareidi communities as well.

For example, I know an MO rabbi who holds that married women should cover their hair. I know he holds that way because friends and relatives of mine asked him if they have to cover their hair, and were told yes. But he doesn't tell the women in shul who aren't covering their hair that they should, he doesn't speak about hair covering during his weekly drasha, and the women's class is on tehillim, not tzniut.

He's not misleading his congregation; he's happy to tell anyone who asks what he holds about the halacha. He's just avoiding a topic that's likely to upset people, and maybe even cause a small group to leave for a non-orthodox shul, in favor of topics that will inspire people.

I can see how in the long run this could cause some confusion, as the younger generation thinks, "but my mother and her friends don't cover their hair and rabbi X never said anything about it." But while that's not good, it's still better than the alternative.

I'm giving this particular example because it's one I've seen, but I've heard from others that rabbis in all communities face similar situations. A rav who's wise and who cares for his congregation knows not to take the "let me tell you what you're doing wrong" approach, MO or not isn't the issue. (and I've heard of rabbis who did take the direct "that's not allowed" approach with people who weren't ready to listen, and it had the opposite of the desired effect).

amother

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 7:22 am

ora_43 wrote:

Thank you very much. I am the amother who made a similar point. My only intention was to show that people should not confuse Modern Orthodox practice with Modern Orthodox psak. Sure there are liberal rabbis who take views that are are lenient or outside of what is considered to be normative halacha and people who follow these opinions, but for the most part this is not the case.

amother

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 8:21 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

I will tell you this: The guy I dated somehow knows the Mikveh Lady in a certain upper class MO neighborhood. The Mikveh there is woefully underutilized. This is not to say that the situation applies to all MO communities, but the problem certainly exists in this particular one.[/color]

If it's the same "Upper Class MO neighborhood" I"m thinking of, then I'll share that most of my friends don't use that mikvah because a) It's by a Jewish School that has tons of activities at night b) It's by an INCREDIBLY busy area where anybody coming home off the subway or going grocery shopping, or running any errand, will see you standing outside and c) It's in a row house in a residential neighborhood, so literally everyone can see you--the huge sign saying "Mikvah" doesn't really help.

And the fact that the guy shared this with you is creepy/inappropriate. Be glad you didn't marry him.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 8:28 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

cookiecutter wrote:

In modern orthodoxy, Judaism is incumbent on an already existing world filled with people whose existence is justified with or without even the binding aspects of tznius minutae.

This is where the fun begins.

When you start blurring the lines between "tradition" and "halacha", there are things that are halacha that get misconstrued as tradition, and vice versa. Tznius is only one part of this large domain.

I learned a lot when I was dating between my first and second marriages.

I will tell you this: The guy I dated somehow knows the Mikveh Lady in a certain upper class MO neighborhood. The Mikveh there is woefully underutilized. This is not to say that the situation applies to all MO communities, but the problem certainly exists in this particular one.

you have no idea why a certain mikvah is not used. and why in the world was this ML talking about this with a guy and a non married guy at that. that is terrible.

cookiecutter

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 9:04 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

cookiecutter wrote:

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The prrof is that I self identify as MO and I was trying very hard to present my idea in a unbiased fashion. If MO people got insulted, I guess it worked! Smile

Of course anyone can fill their lives with torah. I would never suggest that Rabbi YB Soloveichik wasn't immersed in torah, or that yeshivish people are somehow better. I meant that right wing orthodox people see their entire identities as dependent on their frumkeit. So every little nuance of halacha can make or break yourself, and decide whom you can be friends with. But if someone is MO and they don't cover their hair, so what? that doesn't mean they can't serve on the shul board, or be in charge of programming for the youth group. And if a lot of women could stand to improve their tznius habits, that doesn't necessarily mean that the rabbi MUST prioritize that in his sermon and outreach over relief in Haiti.

Every side has it's unique features. MO is inherently more susceptible to laxity. Yeshivishness is inherently more susceptible to OCD.

Okay now I think I've offended everyone, and you can all resume your daily routines in peace.

Raisin

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 9:51 am

amother wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

I'm on Seasonique. That means I get 4 periods a year, and thus use the mikvah only 4 times a year. And I agree with the others that I would be wary of using a mikvah that had such a yenta for a mikvah lady.

why would M.O women be more likely to use seasonique or similar types of bc then chareidi women? Of course, chareidi women may be less likely to use bc altogether, but then they would be more likely to pregnant or nursing, and also therefore infrequent mikva users.

of course, this may not be a popular mikva for other reasons, as listed above, and women are travelling further to use a nicer mikva (with a less gossipy mikva lady), rather then not keeping thm at all.

Barbara

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 10:00 am

amother wrote:

Barbara wrote:

amother wrote:

Barbara wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

Uh-huh.

My dad's name is Mort, and he was an auto mechanic, now retired

Your turn. So now you want to identify these so-called rabbis? I'll be glad to give them a call.

Barbara

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 10:05 am

amother wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

Actually, its quite disgusting that the mikvah lady discussed this with a man.

Not that I believe it anyway.

718

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 10:33 am

louche wrote:

amother wrote:

Is this the correct attitude? How about "Kol Yisroel areivim ze la'ze"?

Many of us, myself included, would have more respect for the people who try to correct other people's observance under the flag of "kol yisrael arevim" if they were a little more active in helping them out in other tangible ways under the same flag. But when a person's "kol yisrael arevim" manifests itself solely in telling people what they're doing wrong, then I take their "kol yisrael" and change the channel.

I think the issue is that a lot of people dont know what is really halacha, what is doresa and derabanan. It makes a difference if someone is oiver doresa or derobonan... you have to know what youre talking about. So dont open your mouth unless you know- which basically means dont open your mouth

Then theres another issue to consider- some people come from non religious homes and for them to wear a skirt and hat to shul is a huge step. For someone like me its a step down
I think growing is about taking steps up. So maybe someone that looks "less" than me took many more steps up in their liftime than me. Who knows what Hashem appreciates- someoen who looks less than me but took many steps up or someone who was born religious and dies the same way she was born without taking steps up? (hope this is clear)

PinkFridge

Tue, Sep 14 2010, 11:03 am

[quote="718"][quote="louche"]

amother wrote:

\

Then theres another issue to consider- some people come from non religious homes and for them to wear a skirt and hat to shul is a huge step. For someone like me its a step down
I think growing is about taking steps up. So maybe someone that looks "less" than me took many more steps up in their liftime than me. Who knows what Hashem appreciates- someoen who looks less than me but took many steps up or someone who was born religious and dies the same way she was born without taking steps up? (hope this is clear)

Thank you for saying, "For someone like me." I wish I felt comfortable wearing a hat (covers everything) on Shabbos more often, and I wear separates, not suits. I don't feel that wearing a sheitel all the time, or wearing a suit is necessarily upgrading my tznius. Nor do I think that of getting rid of my very long and/or denim skirts.

But I digress. Back to the purpose of the thread, which at the moment is indiscreet mikvah ladies.