Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
I'm modern orthodox so I'm allowed
  Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  Next



Post new topic    View latest: 24h 48h 72h

snow_white




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 11:57 am
MommyZ wrote:
chavamom wrote:
There are a lot of things where there is a halachic dispute - like stockings or milk that has not been supervised by a Jew in the production. If someone's understanding of the halacha is that "shok" includes the lower leg, then wearing stockings is not a "chumra", but how they understand the halacha. Ditto with chalav yisrael - if they don't hold of R. Moshe, then it's not a "chumra", but halacha. That certainly doesn't make them "adding to the torah" or a "chosid shoteh".


Those were actually not things that I had in mind although dh specifically doesn't buy cholov yisroel because they play around with the dates which causes the milk to spoil faster and he believes that they have no chezkas kashrus. He believes that if they will play around with that who knows what else they play around with. I had in mind things like saying Brooklyn water is assur or long skirts are the reason frum women have cancer cv.


Is THAT why cholov yisroel milk spoils so quickly?? I have been wondering that for years . . . you just answered an age-old question! How are they allowed to do that, though? Don't the same FDA inspection rules (or whatever standard enforcements) apply to c.y. milk? How have they been able to slip under the radar for so long? (And why don't any of the non-kosher dairy farms do the same thing to increase their sales?) The explanation certainly makes sense, but I'm wondering how accurate it is just because of the feasibility . . .
Back to top

merelyme




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 12:00 pm
snow_white wrote:
I'm wondering how accurate it is just because of the feasibility . . .


I'd be very wary of believing or repeating that story. The same reason people rely on chalav stam in the U.S. would make this impossible.
Back to top

JRKmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 12:19 pm
1. People are confusing two different concepts:

Identification with a particular stream of Judaism = following a specific hashkafah and/or specific rabbis and their rulings.

level of observance = degree to which an individual of ANY stream actually follows its teachings and directives.

2. No, being Orthodox doesn't necessarily mean that you observe kashruth, Shabbat and mikvah properly. That's a matter of level of observance. It can mean that you don't identify with any non-Orthodox stream of Judaism.

In the US, around 90% of Jews aren't Orthodox, so quite often, the 10% that are will represent only those that are committed to a higher level of observance. [This doesn't always hold true, of course, esp. in the case of FFB who may not believe but don't want to break from their community and family.]

In other places, that's not the case. Chabad is the dominant stream in the former Soviet Union. Reform and Conservative are tiny in Israel. South Africa has a much larger percentage of Orthodox, as does Montreal. Identification with an Orthodox movement in these places doesn't necessarily mean a high level of observance.

My mother, for example, had never seen anything other than an Orthodox shul when she was growing up in Montreal - and that's where her pro-Communist, atheist parents took her twice a year for High Holiday services.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 12:41 pm
chavamom wrote:
I've heard it not only from other MO rabbis, but from my husband, the not-so-MO rabbi. Would you like his number?


Thank you. I'm not quite sure which part was not credible- the fact that Rabbis have children, the fact that a rabbis child might post on a message board, or the fact that someone might not want to reveal their personal identity on a message board and also reveal personal details about their public figure parent in one fell swoop.

I think we need to coin this newest method of fallacious reasoning-- if I don't like what you are saying but can't argue against you I'll just attack you for being another. Really brilliant.
Back to top

mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 2:44 pm
JRKmommy wrote:
1. People are confusing two different concepts:

Identification with a particular stream of Judaism = following a specific hashkafah and/or specific rabbis and their rulings.

level of observance = degree to which an individual of ANY stream actually follows its teachings and directives.

2. No, being Orthodox doesn't necessarily mean that you observe kashruth, Shabbat and mikvah properly. That's a matter of level of observance. It can mean that you don't identify with any non-Orthodox stream of Judaism.

In the US, around 90% of Jews aren't Orthodox, so quite often, the 10% that are will represent only those that are committed to a higher level of observance.


This makes perfect sense.
Back to top

Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 2:53 pm
amother wrote:
chavamom wrote:
I've heard it not only from other MO rabbis, but from my husband, the not-so-MO rabbi. Would you like his number?


Thank you. I'm not quite sure which part was not credible- the fact that Rabbis have children, the fact that a rabbis child might post on a message board, or the fact that someone might not want to reveal their personal identity on a message board and also reveal personal details about their public figure parent in one fell swoop.

I think we need to coin this newest method of fallacious reasoning-- if I don't like what you are saying but can't argue against you I'll just attack you for being another. Really brilliant.


Nope. What I don't believe is that MO rabbis are deliberately misleading their congregants as to the requirements of halacha, as you claimed. If you want people to believe you, then say it in your own name and identify your sources. Otherwise, I'll just assume that you're exactly what I think you are -- a nasty, lying, person who thinks that she's somehow superior to Modern Orthodox. So superior, in fact, that she thinks that Hashem designated HER to judge them.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 3:16 pm
Barbara wrote:
amother wrote:
chavamom wrote:
I've heard it not only from other MO rabbis, but from my husband, the not-so-MO rabbi. Would you like his number?


Thank you. I'm not quite sure which part was not credible- the fact that Rabbis have children, the fact that a rabbis child might post on a message board, or the fact that someone might not want to reveal their personal identity on a message board and also reveal personal details about their public figure parent in one fell swoop.

I think we need to coin this newest method of fallacious reasoning-- if I don't like what you are saying but can't argue against you I'll just attack you for being another. Really brilliant.


Nope. What I don't believe is that MO rabbis are deliberately misleading their congregants as to the requirements of halacha, as you claimed. If you want people to believe you, then say it in your own name and identify your sources. Otherwise, I'll just assume that you're exactly what I think you are -- a nasty, lying, person who thinks that she's somehow superior to Modern Orthodox. So superior, in fact, that she thinks that Hashem designated HER to judge them.


WOW. I'm judgmental and nasty? I don't even understand how you got a fraction of that from my posts. There is a major difference between being selective in what you preach about and misleading someone. As a lawyer I would think you would appreciate the distinction between staying silent and actively lying about something. My point still stands and others have corroborated it, you have done nothing but attack ad hominem- both me and now my family members too (and yes, I am still a person even though I am using amother. My use of amother is perfectly valid by the rules of this site.) And by the way, I personally identify as Modern Orthodox, and have done so my whole life. I have a membership card and everything.
Back to top

HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 3:16 pm
It would not surprise me if a Rabbi of a congregation presented ideas to his congregation in a way that most resonated with them rather than antagonized them. It would in fact be counter-productive in most cases to do otherwise. That doesn't mean endorsing ideas that are incorrect, but rather meeting people at the level in which they are at and attempting to gently raise that level--which is something every good Rabbi, regardless of his affiliation should do.

Shame, inspiration, praise etc are all and can all be used; different things work with different groups at different times: ie, sometimes it is best to point out an error sometimes it is best to praise and effort. (Please note also that the areas which are important to one Rabbi or group are less important to another. The importance with which one group/Rabbi rates X does not in any way indicate that is how all groups/Rabbiem should rate X, nor does it indicate how G-d rates X.)

This works on micro and macro levels, but with larger groups one has to "play the center" rather than appeal to the ends.

Any good Rabbi does this, whether M.O. or Charedi or Yeshivish. But most people tend to notice the smudges on their friends noses long before noting the smudge on their own nose.

All of this is a far cry from deliberately lying and misleading the congregation.
Back to top

JRKmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 3:22 pm
HindaRochel wrote:
It would not surprise me if a Rabbi of a congregation presented ideas to his congregation in a way that most resonated with them rather than antagonized them. It would in fact be counter-productive in most cases to do otherwise. That doesn't mean endorsing ideas that are incorrect, but rather meeting people at the level in which they are at and attempting to gently raise that level--which is something every good Rabbi, regardless of his affiliation should do.

Shame, inspiration, praise etc are all and can all be used; different things work with different groups at different times: ie, sometimes it is best to point out an error sometimes it is best to praise and effort. (Please note also that the areas which are important to one Rabbi or group are less important to another. The importance with which one group/Rabbi rates X does not in any way indicate that is how all groups/Rabbiem should rate X, nor does it indicate how G-d rates X.)

This works on micro and macro levels, but with larger groups one has to "play the center" rather than appeal to the ends.

Any good Rabbi does this, whether M.O. or Charedi or Yeshivish. But most people tend to notice the smudges on their friends noses long before noting the smudge on their own nose.

All of this is a far cry from deliberately lying and misleading the congregation.


Exactly. It's done everywhere, esp. in any kiruv-oriented group (many of which are not MO).
Back to top

amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 3:45 pm
Thank you HindaRochel and JRKMommy. I didn't think I said anything too "out there" and in fact I had intended my post to serve as a kind of defense of Modern Orthodoxy, while at the same time not making excuses for the practices of Modern Orthodox people that may have been decided by factors other than psak halacha. I was quite taken aback by Barbara's vociferous reaction to me and my post.
Back to top

chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 5:12 pm
JRKmommy wrote:
HindaRochel wrote:

Any good Rabbi does this, whether M.O. or Charedi or Yeshivish. But most people tend to notice the smudges on their friends noses long before noting the smudge on their own nose.

All of this is a far cry from deliberately lying and misleading the congregation.


Exactly. It's done everywhere, esp. in any kiruv-oriented group (many of which are not MO).


That's riiiiiiiiiight!

There is actually a halachic principal behind not telling someone something you know they won't do unless it is a d'oraisa b/c it is better that they do it beshogeg (accidentally, without knowing it is forbidden) than bemeizid (knowing it is assur and doing it anyway). There is also the idea that you don't want to beat people with a stick and scare them away, causing them to abandon what they are doing with a potential to grow. How many MO congregants would stick around if the rabbi took the "short skirts are causing cancer! repent oh ye sinners!" approach?
Back to top

MommyZ




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 5:43 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
MommyZ wrote:
chavamom wrote:
Again, Brooklyn water - not necessarily a chumra. (and really, we don't care why you don't drink chalav yisrael, just understand that there are people who hold that to be the straight halacha). Long skirts and cancer? That's nothing to do with chumra, that's just people talking shtus.


Actually it's from Rav Falk.


Could I trouble you to quote chapter and verse? Thanks.


Not until the kids are asleep.
Back to top

chaylizi




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 5:45 pm
I *think* I heard this from R Frand in a shiur, but I could be wrong.

Someone went to ask R Moshe about his personal position on a certain issue & when the person heard what it was, he was floored. He asked R Moshe why he never publicized his stance on this (I believe it was tznius) issue. The answer was something along the lines of- What the fashion designers in Paris have to say about it, is shtarker than my psak.
Back to top

MommyZ




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 5:47 pm
snow_white wrote:
MommyZ wrote:
chavamom wrote:
There are a lot of things where there is a halachic dispute - like stockings or milk that has not been supervised by a Jew in the production. If someone's understanding of the halacha is that "shok" includes the lower leg, then wearing stockings is not a "chumra", but how they understand the halacha. Ditto with chalav yisrael - if they don't hold of R. Moshe, then it's not a "chumra", but halacha. That certainly doesn't make them "adding to the torah" or a "chosid shoteh".


Those were actually not things that I had in mind although dh specifically doesn't buy cholov yisroel because they play around with the dates which causes the milk to spoil faster and he believes that they have no chezkas kashrus. He believes that if they will play around with that who knows what else they play around with. I had in mind things like saying Brooklyn water is assur or long skirts are the reason frum women have cancer cv.


Is THAT why cholov yisroel milk spoils so quickly?? I have been wondering that for years . . . you just answered an age-old question! How are they allowed to do that, though? Don't the same FDA inspection rules (or whatever standard enforcements) apply to c.y. milk? How have they been able to slip under the radar for so long? (And why don't any of the non-kosher dairy farms do the same thing to increase their sales?) The explanation certainly makes sense, but I'm wondering how accurate it is just because of the feasibility . . .


I have no proof and it's purely speculative but I do know that the excuse that the milk is not properly refrigerated or that it is left outside too long after being taken off the trucks doesn't hold water since dh used to work in restaurants and would take the milk when it was still freezing cold right off the trucks to put it in the refrigerators. It still spoiled before the date stamped on the bottle and well before the chalav stam milk. Do you have a better explanation then there is funny business going on there?
Back to top

mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 5:50 pm
JRKmommy wrote:
HindaRochel wrote:
It would not surprise me if a Rabbi of a congregation presented ideas to his congregation in a way that most resonated with them rather than antagonized them.

Shame, inspiration, praise etc are all and can all be used;

Any good Rabbi does this, whether M.O. or Charedi or Yeshivish.


Exactly. It's done everywhere, esp. in any kiruv-oriented group (many of which are not MO).


My shul selected a Rabbi who will serve as a puppet. Over the years, many people have become frummer on their own, and many of their children have become frummer. The Rabbi, however, can not take credit for this.
Back to top

mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 5:53 pm
chaylizi wrote:


Someone went to ask R Moshe about his personal position on a certain issue & when the person heard what it was, he was floored. He asked R Moshe why he never publicized his stance on this (I believe it was tznius) issue. The answer was something along the lines of- What the fashion designers in Paris have to say about it, is shtarker than my psak.


If only Rav Moshe could see the fashions today!
Back to top

MommyZ




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 6:00 pm
OPINIONATED wrote:
chaylizi wrote:


Someone went to ask R Moshe about his personal position on a certain issue & when the person heard what it was, he was floored. He asked R Moshe why he never publicized his stance on this (I believe it was tznius) issue. The answer was something along the lines of- What the fashion designers in Paris have to say about it, is shtarker than my psak.


If only Rav Moshe could see the fashions today!


Because the mini skirts that Bais Yaakov girls wore in the 1960's were so much more tzanua?
Back to top

mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 6:11 pm
I was thinking about the 1980's. Sorry.
Back to top

MommyZ




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 6:26 pm
OPINIONATED wrote:
I was thinking about the 1980's. Sorry.


I was born in the 1980's Smile.
Back to top

Chavelamomela




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 10:17 pm
I have so many thoughts on this thread...my head is spinning.

I always approach the issue of hashkafa as not about levels of observance, but what areas are stressed more than others. I find that when it comes to certain "groups" there are those that stress and emphasize certain mitzvot over others. That doesn't mean the others aren't important, just that sometimes one mitzvah sometimes overshadows others. For example, the Satmar community is well-known for their observance of bikur cholim - they do it better than any other group as a whole. The Lubavich community is renown for its kiruv, the Religious Zionist community is excellent as Mitzvat Yishuv eretz Yisrael, etc, etc.

In general, I find that when you're machmir in one area of mitzvah observance, one tends to wind up being meikil in other areas - so being so machmir in bein adam l'makom often winds up making one maykil in bein adaml'chaveiro.

Sure, as a whole, the MO community may not be as "outwardly" observant as more fervently orthodox grops, but I also find it true that when you strip away the window dressing, people are the same in all groups- you have the "frummies", the slackers, the intellectuals, the social bigs, the ones who do it for the joy, others who hate it al but do it anyway, etc, etc...they're in all communities (my BIL did a study for his doctoral degree in this area of attitudes toward mitzvah observance in various communities and the findings were interesting).

I find, for example, that the MO community as a whole may not be as careful about the specific lines of tzniut that the chareidim follow (though there are surely many people who are very careful about hair covering, dressing modestly in their own way, etc), but there is also emphasis on areas that seem to be overlooked in chareidi communities in general - such as attitudes toward non-Jews, social responsibility, issues that concern not just the frum world, but issues that involve caring for the whole world, our survival as a global community, our responsibility toward our less fortunate (non-Jewish) neighbors, and our relationships with people, not just our relationship toward God.

It is because of that greater emphasis on issues of Bein Adam L'Chaveiro that I find myself personally attracted to that kind of community, whether or not I cover my hair or wear pants, etc.

(And btw...the issue of hair-covering shouldn't be taken so for granted - there is real historical halachic precedence for whole segments of the Jewish community who were Torah observant, but nonetheless, didn't cover their hair - See Rabbi Michael Broyde's 70-page article in one of last-years issues of the Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society for a thorough analysis of the issues - and although he states clearly that when he is asked if a married woman should cover, he'll unequivocally say that she should, he also is adamant that WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE previous generations who did not keep this halacha, as there is clear halachic precedent for their practice - and he promotes that idea in general, not just about hair-covering, but about kashrut, etc).

The other thought I have about this whole issue is that in general, why is it that when we're confronted with a new idea, some of us respond with "Well, that's new, how can it be permissible????!!!" while others approach with an opposite frame of mind "this is permissible unless there's halachic reasoning for it to be assur" - Halacha, not emotion or "pasht-nisht" approach.

Anyway, I may get flamed for my thoughts, but that's what they are...my musings.
Back to top
Page 5 of 6   Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic       Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Whats your favorite Modern Chandelier, for 18' ceiling,
by amother
2 Mon, Mar 25 2024, 10:48 am View last post
Modern buffet table online
by bouncy
1 Tue, Mar 12 2024, 8:40 pm View last post
Where to buy abstract (modern) large area rugs, reasonably?
by amother
7 Mon, Feb 26 2024, 10:35 pm View last post
ISO Reclining 2 seater sofas well priced modern look
by amother
0 Tue, Feb 20 2024, 10:18 am View last post
Modern Orthodox birthright trip 10 Thu, Feb 15 2024, 4:04 pm View last post