Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
S/o Can you be 'bought'?
Previous  1  2  3



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h



Can you be 'bought' for the right price?
No, never. I am true to my ideals.  
 45%  [ 22 ]
Sure, if the price is right  
 14%  [ 7 ]
I don't think so, but I may waver if the opportunity arose  
 27%  [ 13 ]
I can be bought, but only to increase my observance level, no decrease  
 6%  [ 3 ]
I already have changed my change my lifestyle for financial, materialistic or social gains  
 2%  [ 1 ]
other  
 4%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 48



kalsee




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 2:47 am
freidasima wrote:
Kalsee, you will definitely find rabbonim who disagree and say it is NOT yehoreg ve'al ya'avor, simply because the Holocaust was not a sha'as hagezero but a sha'as hadechak, and that being baptized forcibly under those circumstances is NOT avodo zoro.


She was not forced, she was given a choice. Baptize or be turned over to the Nazis.

All the mitzvos of the Torah, BESIDES for the three yehareg ve'al yaavor, we differentiate between shmad and she'as hadchak.
For example - to save a person's life you may be mechallel shabbos.
But if someone comes over to you with a gun and says "Be mechallel shabbos or else I will kill you" That is shmad and you may not be mechallel shabbos.
This is what happened during the time of antiyochus and the chashmonaim. They kept shabbos, bris mila, kosher under threat of death because it was a time of shmad.

However the three aveiros chamuros are also during a sha's hadchak! Even if someones daughter is sick and the only way to save her is to worship some god , that is not allowed.
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 5:27 am
Some opinions dating back to Rashi's times and also around Spanish expulsion allow pretending to be Xtian, especially for women, to save your life.
Back to top

sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 5:56 am
kalsee wrote:
ak.
For example - to save a person's life you may be mechallel shabbos.
But if someone comes over to you with a gun and says "Be mechallel shabbos or else I will kill you" That is shmad and you may not be mechallel shabbos.


This is not shmad. If someone points a gun at your head and says be mechalel Shabbos or eat treif or I'll shoot, YOU SHOULD DO IT, except in a period of gezeiros shmad, where laws are being passed for the purpose of uprooting Torah or Yiddishkeit, r"l.

The time of the chashmonaim/Antiochus were gezeiras shmad. If someone did this to you today in America, it wouldn't be a shmad thing.

(If your example were correct, then every aveira would be yehareg ve'al yaavor, wouldn't it?)


Last edited by sarahd on Tue, Sep 14 2010, 6:03 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

sky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 6:03 am
sarahd wrote:
kalsee wrote:
ak.
For example - to save a person's life you may be mechallel shabbos.
But if someone comes over to you with a gun and says "Be mechallel shabbos or else I will kill you" That is shmad and you may not be mechallel shabbos.


This is not shmad. If someone points a gun at your head and says be mechalel Shabbos or eat treif or I'll shoot, YOU SHOULD DO IT, except in a period of gezeiros shmad, where laws are being passed for the purpose of uprooting Torah or Yiddishkeit, r"l.

The time of the chashmonaim/Antiochus were gezeiras shmad. If someone did this to you today in America, it wouldn't be a shmad thing.


I thought the same thing as Sarahd.
Back to top

freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 7:05 am
You are mixing up a few things, my dh recently gave a shiur on this one so it's fresh in my mind. There are two situations, one is called sha'as hadechak, the other is called sha'as hagezero. When a tzorer (enemy) says that you have to do X (like change your shoelace to a kind which honors some avodo zoro) then you have to be willing to die even for that. In halocho it's called "arketa demisana" which means your shoelace, literally. But the Holocaust was not that. It was sha'as hadechak, meaning the enemy didn't want us to change our religion, just the opposite, he wanted to kill us no matter what. Changing our religion wouldn't help up because Jews up to the third generation were slated to be killed.

Now for the example. As the baptism is of course false, at least to the Jew because their other choice is to definitely be killed, they are permitted according to most rabbonim to go through the baptism as they know that they are doing this under the duress of knowing that if they don't they will be killed - this woman by being handed over to the Nazis would be killed of course, not tickled or something so what are we arguing exactly? - anyhow, under such circumstances one relies on the psak saying that Xtianity is not avodo zoro, certainly not western Xtianity as opposed to Russian orthodox with all the pictures etc. which is a bit more problematic. Hence it is not one of the "big three". At the time of Sha'as hadechak we can accept any and any kulos regarding the definitions of the "big three". Murder is murder, that's a problem. Relations which are forbidden are relations that are forbidden...but...even there, seems that there is a way around it. If a woman is told to have relations, let's say, with her brother or her father, there is no way around that, yehoreg ve'al ya'avor. But let's say she is married, and is forced to have relations with another man under certain circumstances, there is a way for her husband to give her a pre-dated Get with a beisdin, based on the circumstances (there is a whole halochic way around it that I don't want to go into here) and then she is muttar to anyone. Meaning she would be a kedeisha in the sense of sleeping with lots of men, without mikva, without kiddushin and without concubine circumstances, but it is not one of the big three as she is no longer married. But again, ex post facto.

So...what do we learn from this? That in a sense the only one of the "big three" that can't be halochically manipulated...is murder.
And where do we learn this from? Dovid Hamelech and Batsheva. His Uriah Hachiti business was a no-no. And guess who paid the price? The baby. Had to die as a mamzer. But it was biydei shomayim. As for Dovid and Bathsheva, well he got what he wanted in this world, didn't he. But the price, oy the price, was very very high. And yet...melech hamoshiach is the result of that union. That also teaches us something but go know what it is....

In short, as dh taught us all, it's very very very very very complicated. Not for us to pasken at all...
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 7:08 am
I learned Batsheva got the get because that's what the soldiers did before going to war.

Btw I learned it's not shoelace it's buckle/strap LOL
Back to top

718




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2010, 7:41 am
I dont want to be tested
Back to top

louche




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 16 2010, 9:37 am
kalsee wrote:


Chas veshalom. Xtianity is avoda zara.

.


Please get your facts straight before making categorical statements of this type. There are differing opinions as to whether or not it qualifies as true avodah zarah.
Back to top
Page 3 of 3 Previous  1  2  3 Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Anyone bought iband with hair recently?
by amother
4 Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:09 pm View last post
Has anyone bought a chandelier in Lighting Palace (Flatbush)
by amother
2 Tue, Mar 19 2024, 9:37 pm View last post
Has anyone bought antiques from Chairish?
by amother
3 Tue, Mar 05 2024, 7:31 am View last post
Bought an Eva + Chloe recently?
by amother
0 Sun, Mar 03 2024, 6:08 am View last post
Has anyone bought these Ali Plus Shabbos shoes? 2 Sun, Mar 03 2024, 1:11 am View last post