Attention Litivish or Chassidish Mothers and Freidasima

Raizle

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 5:58 am

amother wrote:

OP, we had an incident with our 11 year old daughter a few weeks ago. We are chabad btw, but my dd until then was going to a community school with M.O and not frum kids. We found a notebook our dd had written a story in. The story was pretty s-xually explicit. (kissing, touching breasts) obviously she had been reading somehow some inappropriate books, or heard heer friends talking about this.

My dh originally had the approach your dh had. tell her this is disgusting, non jewish etc. I think this is a typical fatherly reaction btw. Men hate to think of their daughters having s-xual feelings.

bh we spoke to someone older and wiser and he told us to tell dd what EVERYONE here (and what your first instinct was) is telling you to do. Tell her this is appropriate behaviour within marriage.

I'm sure your husband is a great guy but just realise as a father his feelings on this matter are going to be complicated. And NO one is always right. Even the most perfect guy in the world. (which I am sure he is)

about what I bolded I think you are right amother. I think it's a very typical male reaction. I had a similar reaction from my own husband in regards to issues that cropped up.

freidasima

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 7:05 am

OK I'm back...sorry, only saw this now.
So there are chassidish, litvish and Freidasima! I'm honored.

First OP you handled this just fine. Second, your husband handled it like a typical man. Has nothing to do with being chassidish, litvish or anything else. So it's bein hazemanim and my husband is learning here at home (in fact just finished putting up sukka) so forgive me that I put the question to him without giving too many details. He agreed that your husband answered just like any man with his daughter because fathers and daughters? Our oldest daughter has a baby already but to her father, you should forgive me, she will always be a besula. His mother as well...even though she had three children...

Now down to the nitty-gritty. You don't want your daughter to know too much, but you want her to know the truth. And the truth is as follows for anyone and everyone, including DL and MO BTW.

A marriage between a husband and a wife is a holy thing. Sacred. Kodosh. And what goes on between husbands and wives is kodosh. That's why it is called "kiddushin" but change one letter, take out the vov, one of Hashem's letters, and kedusha becomes kedeisha chas vesholom. And one of the expressions of kedusha is also the love for the kli, the body, that the neshomo is packaged in. That's why women are taught from the time of the Tanach to make themselves attractive for their husbands and husbands are taught to be orderly and neat (trim their hair, their nails, bathe to be clean) for their wives, not just for themselves.

But...what happens between husband and wife is a special kind of love, there is nothing like it in this world, and that's why it has to be totally private. And there are things which husbands and wives can do, as an expression of that love, that is usually not done with anyone else. Kissing on the lips for example. A good friend of my mother's used to say "you kiss a girlfriend on the cheek, a child on the forehead and a husband where you don't kiss anyone else". It's muttar. Your daughter has to know that it is muttar and KODOSH as it is an expression for the love of the kli housing their holy neshomo. And it is not OSSUR.

and again, BUT...it should be done in private. Tell her that the couple below would be terribly horribly embarrased to know that anyone heard or saw them kissing or hugging the way married people do when they are alone, even if it is an expression of kedusha. There are things that you make a brocho for, but you do in private. Lehavdil, and you have to emphasize the lehavdil as she doesn't know mikva yet it's the only example you can give her, when you use the restroom and wash your hands, you make a brocho afterwards for hashem's having given us the right openings. BUT DO WE LET ANYONE SEE THOSE OPENINGS? DO WE DO OUR BUSINESS IN FRONT OF ANYONE? Of course not. But that, too, is part of kedusha, believe it or not, as keeping our body healthy is a mitzva of venishmarten me'od lenafshoseichem.

Same here. It's kodosh, but totally private. There are things which you will see people do in public which they should do in private, as sheltered as your daughter is, I'm assuming she has seen women wearing dresses that don't cover all that should be covered on the street...that is doing in public what you (we) hold should be done in private too. And so there are people who haven't the idea that there are things which are private. They didn't teach them right. And so they do it in public.

However - here is the problem. How do you explain this without maligning all the good yidden who do hold hands in public etc? Here is what I taught my kids, maybe it will help with you.

I taught them that if it is something that they would do to their little brother and sister in public (hold hands, give a little (not full body) hug, etc. there are people who hold that a husband and a wife can do that in front of other people. But there are things which no cultured person, frum yid, frei yid, not yid at all, do not do in public, although it is just fine in total privacy. And that was the mistake that the neighbors made, thinking they were totally in privacy and not noticing that they weren't.

It was a mistake. End of story.

Don't worry about her thinking about mommy and daddy. Most kids don't. heck my own mother only did it twice no? On her wedding night and so that I could be born...and I'm 51...

Now go and run to your neighbor and gently explain that they probably didn't notice bla bla bla etc. I'm sure she will be very embarrassed if she is a mensch.

And as for your husband, he is a good man, of that I am sure, but tell your daughter that if there is anything having to do with boys and girls, men and women, it is more tzinus that she comes to YOU and only to YOU and not to a man even if he is her father.

That puts a nice slant on saying, "men tell their daughters strange things to keep them very very very innocent and you know what? It rarely works long term..."

But you did the right thing when put on the spot. May this be the biggest problem you deal with in the new year!

So.

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 7:14 am

Thanks FS.

BTW her first question last night was " Do you and Abba do that?".

In any event, although we differ on many things (including this), your post was the best one.

Raizle

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 7:26 am

Friedasima, that was great.
I hope OP takes it to heart and listens to your advice.

The question that follows if she does choose to listen to you is, what to do now that her husband told her daughter what he did and that she agreed with him. How can they fix that up?

shalhevet

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 7:27 am

Yeah, FS, I agree - your post was the best. I'm not sure if I agree with every detail, but the message is the right one.

I think we should let her into the chareidi section LOL

Raizle

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 7:37 am

amother wrote:

Thanks FS.

BTW her first question last night was " Do you and Abba do that?".

In any event, although we differ on many things (including this), your post was the best one.

I just want to say that even though we tell/told our kids the truth and answer their questions truthfully while keeping it age appropriate, if we are asked questions like that I try to redirect the question and tell them that we aren't going to talk about their father and I and what we do specifically.

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 7:44 am

Thanks FS - I loved your post.
And now, I just want to know what sort of professional you are so that I could direct my queries to you next time as well LOL

freidasima

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 9:36 am

I am NOT looking for business...if there are any other psychologists among you I will be happy to pass on referrals, I'm swamped!

But for friends on imamother I'm always here, in my private practice I deal with anything having to do with family therapy but basically these days at work because of the outfit I work with I specialize in dealing with long-term crisis/chronic state situations, particularly having to do with anything that has a vocational, professional, economic solution. Families in crisis that can use not just therapy but practical solutions to economic problems etc.

Shal, I'm charedi at heart I guess in various things, or you can just call me "old fashioned"...

Op, you have two problems here. What to do about what your husband said while not undermining him, and what to do about "what do you and daddy do".

About "what do you and daddy do", that's easier. Please, never give details. I know of parents who have described to their children what form of BC they use. Ugh. A simple, "daddy and I love each other very much and we do what is muttar". She will ask more and you can simply answer over and over "don't you see how much daddy and I love each other? Just look at the way we look at each other sometimes, just listen to how he sings aishes chayil to me" etc. Never say "we do this" but "most normal happy married couples kiss each other in private, each couple in the way that suits them".

As for what to do about your husband, here I defer to my husband who said the following. There are times that mothers have to take their daughters aside and say that sometimes there are "mens hashkofos" and "ladies' hashkofos" or "mommy's hashkofos" and "daddy's hashkofos", and the difference comes because daddies very much like to protect their daughters from anything in the world which will possibly hurt the purity of their neshomos. And when mommies are good mommies they go along with the daddy's hashkofo, but quietly they also explain to their daughters that there is a mommy's hashkofo (and then give her your version) and that we just "know it" but don't share it with the daddy's because we don't want them to know what we are growing up and already know about the "ladies' hashkofo".

It sounds convoluted but it's better than saying that your husband didn't stick to the truth...it fudges it in a nice way. I was surprised that my husband said this but he also said "look, in day to day life and raising kids you women are a hundred times more on the ball than we are, and we can come out with doozies, and if you are nice enough to publically back us up when we say what we do, in private you can at least put the kids straight"...then he asked me if I do that at home to which I answered "all the time".

Yeah well...

Gsanmb

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 9:46 am

Freida'sIma, you are right on target here! Clap, clap.

Unfortunately because of the area we now live, I have had to have similar conversations with my kids. I say more or less exactly what F'I recommended.

I would also say, gently, that you might want to be careful about encouraging lashon ha'ra (motzei shem ra?) about another frum family...even if they did make a mistake in forgetting to close their shades.

If one of the values you try to transmit to your daughter is avoiding lashon ha'ra (and with adolescent and teenage girls I imagine this issue comes up fairly regularly), then this is an excellent real-life example of how to be dan l'kaf zechut toward this couple.

Because as a previous poster said, maligning them in order to make your own family more comfortable does not negate the responsibility of maintaining standards of speech and the halachot of shemirat halashon.

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 9:46 am

Why is it hard to imagine that your daughter or mother is a normal person and is/will be IYH married and have relations? I mean without details, just this idea? It seems pretty normal to me, or there wouldn't be a new generation!

Sherri

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 9:48 am

And what WOULD be the answer to a child who continues and asks about her own parents? (Open floor Wink

)

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 9:50 am

"It's not tznius to discuss" is the normal answer, imo!

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 9:54 am

Ruchel wrote:

"It's not tznius to discuss" is the normal answer, imo!

That in itself is an answer, no?

MaBelleVie

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:03 am

As a sefardi, it seems my opinion here is not wanted, but since I love giving unsolicited advice I'll throw it out there anyway Wink

What would I answer? Couples who love each other like to hug and kiss, similar to the way I hug and kiss YOU because I love you. For couples, it's supposed to be done in private. It's not disgusting, just like it's not disgusting when we hug and kiss you. That's just what people do when they love each other. But like I said, for couples it's supposed to be private and other people shouldn't see or talk about them.

Do abba and Ima do it? It's a normal thing for couples who love each other to do it, but it's private and not tznua to talk about it.

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:05 am

There are many charedi Sefardim, and nowadays many Litvish or chasidish ones, in fact...
My Mizrachi friend cooks gefilte fish and leikech more often than we do... my dh's Sefardi friend says git yontef... LOL

(yes in fact it's sad I know).

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:11 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

As a sefardi, it seems my opinion here is not wanted, but since I love giving unsolicited advice I'll throw it out there anyway Wink

OP here. Had to jump back in. Please don't play the Sefardi card. Your opinion is actually not really relevant but that has nothing to do with being sefardi. I specifically requested answers from Charedi posters. This is getting a little old.

Is there a mod around that can lock this thread? I think I've heard enough unsolicited advice for today.

Freidasima, you, on the other hand, are the best! Thanks for real advice!

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:15 am

life'sgreat wrote:

amother wrote:

My 12 year old Charedi daughter came in to me this evening and asked me if husbands and wives are allowed to hug and kiss. shock

Turns out she was standing on our porch and speaking with her friend who lives 2 floors down. The apartment directly under us has a newly married couple living in it. Their blinds were completely open and dd watched for a few minutes while the couple made out on the couch. Obviously I'll never know just how much she saw but she was in total shock that this couple were "behaving like chilonim" and she was nauseous over the whole thing. Needless to say, my dd is very sheltered and could not imagine that anyone Charedi would do something so disgusting!

I am curious about how Charedi (Litvish or Chassidish) mothers would deal with this.
FS -What do you think?

I probably made the biggest mistake of my life and told her that husbands and wives can do that but that it's not tznius to have the windows open. She was not happy with that answer and of course, started to ask me about her father and myself Confused

I didn't give her a straight answer but I did let her know that it's normal and natural.
When DH found this out he was not a happy camper. He would rather have her think that the neighbors are pervs or something. Oy.

You'd rather she walk around for the next few years thinking that hugging/kissing is wrong and perverted and things that only chilonim do? Do you have any idea how this would affect her beliefs of marriage?

I think you did well with your answer, given the circumstances. You can't make her 'unsee' what she saw, and had to work with that.

To answer to the bolded sentance:

Actually, I pretty much didn't know what a couple may do when they're married. Thinking back I had certain gentle conversations with my mother regarding the subject on things she thought were ok or important, so I was not in any way OBLIVIOUS. I think kissing I vaguely knew about but never let myself think about it and pretty much forgot about it till later.
When it came to Kalla classes though I really DID have to get used to the idea that kissing and hugging is a holy thing. I remember asking my Kalla teacher how these things are something holy LOL

. Probably because the kissing and hugging that is available to be seen is cheap and disgusting looking - all over for everyone to see. It seemed so animalistic. How could Halacha ask us to do just that? Don't forget, I did know something but now it just came out and I was able to wonder really why it was done.
BUT
I got used to it BEFORE my wedding. Very used to it! I totally got how it a beautiful thing when done correctly. And I'm happy I didn't think about these things BEFORE I began dating. (Don't worry, while dating I knew very well to see if this is a guy I would want to be physically close to - in addition to e/t. I knew that physicality came into the picture.)
My point being:
My marriage wasn't affected in the LEAST by not really being aware that hugging and kissing in a Jewish way is holy. In fact, it made it all that more special, all that more mysterious. No one sees, no one knows - just us.
That being said, I think that a big part was attributed to the very healthy view of what marriage is aside for the physical part, before the Kalla classes begin.
Never seeing a frum couple hug or kiss, even not knowing that they do, made it all that more holy. It is indeed something very private. I wasn't affected by it at all. B"h I have a beautiful marriage.

At the end of the day, a girl who was pretty sheltered (not drastically but sheltered enough), will have a super-duper-wonderful marriage if she has the propper guidance before her wedding. You know what? A girl who wasn't sheltered and knew so much will also need a very proper guidance before her wedding.

Last edited by RR on Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:19 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

As a sefardi, it seems my opinion here is not wanted, but since I love giving unsolicited advice I'll throw it out there anyway Wink

I like that answer.

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:20 am

I think except in extreme cases, on both ends, people will turn out fine with proper guidance and a normal personality...

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:21 am

Sherri wrote:

And what WOULD be the answer to a child who continues and asks about her own parents? (Open floor Wink

)

That question can become very loaded when you are divorced ...