Attention Litivish or Chassidish Mothers and Freidasima

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:35 am

baba wrote:

I'm not chareidi, and didnt read all the posts so apologize in advance if this has been said already and for not being chareidi.

In stead of confronting your neighbor you might want to leave her a friendly anonymous note with the helpful tip of keeping her blinds shut.
If you tell her in person, she'll most likely be embarassed every time she sees you. If it's a note, she might suspect everyone, but after a while it is easier to forget.

I actually did leave her a note but it's not too hard to figure out. My porch is the only porch from where her living room window is completely visible. As a matter of fact, my husband said I should go over and speak with her in a friendly way because she may be offended by the letter being anonymous and it may be even more distressful never quite knowing who it is. Isn't it interesting how different people see things differently?

baba

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:40 am

amother wrote:

baba wrote:

For sure.
It's also a personality thing. I'm extremely shy amongst new people, so if I just moved in some where and this happened to me with my new neighbors, I'd be mortified and not sure how I would ever look them in the eye again, so I'd rather just be grateful for the tip and leave it unspoken, even if I kinda know who it was.
I'm sure lots of people agree with this. I'm sure there's a similar amount of people who would be offended and would want to know who was saying this.
That's why it's so hard to do the right thing and please everyone!

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:43 am

RR wrote:

life'sgreat wrote:

amother wrote:

My 12 year old Charedi daughter came in to me this evening and asked me if husbands and wives are allowed to hug and kiss. shock

Turns out she was standing on our porch and speaking with her friend who lives 2 floors down. The apartment directly under us has a newly married couple living in it. Their blinds were completely open and dd watched for a few minutes while the couple made out on the couch. Obviously I'll never know just how much she saw but she was in total shock that this couple were "behaving like chilonim" and she was nauseous over the whole thing. Needless to say, my dd is very sheltered and could not imagine that anyone Charedi would do something so disgusting!

I am curious about how Charedi (Litvish or Chassidish) mothers would deal with this.
FS -What do you think?

I probably made the biggest mistake of my life and told her that husbands and wives can do that but that it's not tznius to have the windows open. She was not happy with that answer and of course, started to ask me about her father and myself Confused

I didn't give her a straight answer but I did let her know that it's normal and natural.
When DH found this out he was not a happy camper. He would rather have her think that the neighbors are pervs or something. Oy.

You'd rather she walk around for the next few years thinking that hugging/kissing is wrong and perverted and things that only chilonim do? Do you have any idea how this would affect her beliefs of marriage?

I think you did well with your answer, given the circumstances. You can't make her 'unsee' what she saw, and had to work with that.

To answer to the bolded sentance:

Actually, I pretty much didn't know what a couple may do when they're married. Thinking back I had certain gentle conversations with my mother regarding the subject on things she thought were ok or important, so I was not in any way OBLIVIOUS. I think kissing I vaguely knew about but never let myself think about it and pretty much forgot about it till later.
When it came to Kalla classes though I really DID have to get used to the idea that kissing and hugging is a holy thing. I remember asking my Kalla teacher how these things are something holy LOL

. Probably because the kissing and hugging that is available to be seen is cheap and disgusting looking - all over for everyone to see. It seemed so animalistic. How could Halacha ask us to do just that? Don't forget, I did know something but now it just came out and I was able to wonder really why it was done.
BUT
I got used to it BEFORE my wedding. Very used to it! I totally got how it a beautiful thing when done correctly. And I'm happy I didn't think about these things BEFORE I began dating. (Don't worry, while dating I knew very well to see if this is a guy I would want to be physically close to - in addition to e/t. I knew that physicality came into the picture.)
My point being:
My marriage wasn't affected in the LEAST by not really being aware that hugging and kissing in a Jewish way is holy. In fact, it made it all that more special, all that more mysterious. No one sees, no one knows - just us.
That being said, I think that a big part was attributed to the very healthy view of what marriage is aside for the physical part, before the Kalla classes begin.
Never seeing a frum couple hug or kiss, even not knowing that they do, made it all that more holy. It is indeed something very private. I wasn't affected by it at all. B"h I have a beautiful marriage.

At the end of the day, a girl who was pretty sheltered (not drastically but sheltered enough), will have a super-duper-wonderful marriage if she has the propper guidance before her wedding. You know what? A girl who wasn't sheltered and knew so much will also need a very proper guidance before her wedding.

OP's daughter is not unaware. She is now of the impression that it is a sick thing that only crazy people do. That's a really big difference.

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:45 am

RR wrote:

Actually, I pretty much didn't know what a couple may do when they're married. Thinking back I had certain gentle conversations with my mother regarding the subject on things she thought were ok or important, so I was not in any way OBLIVIOUS. I think kissing I vaguely knew about but never let myself think about it and pretty much forgot about it till later.
When it came to Kalla classes though I really DID have to get used to the idea that kissing and hugging is a holy thing. I remember asking my Kalla teacher how these things are something holy :lol:. Probably because the kissing and hugging that is available to be seen is cheap and disgusting looking - all over for everyone to see. It seemed so animalistic. How could Halacha ask us to do just that? Don't forget, I did know something but now it just came out and I was able to wonder really why it was done.
BUT
I got used to it BEFORE my wedding. Very used to it! I totally got how it a beautiful thing when done correctly. And I'm happy I didn't think about these things BEFORE I began dating. (Don't worry, while dating I knew very well to see if this is a guy I would want to be physically close to - in addition to e/t. I knew that physicality came into the picture.)
My point being:
My marriage wasn't affected in the LEAST by not really being aware that hugging and kissing in a Jewish way is holy. In fact, it made it all that more special, all that more mysterious. No one sees, no one knows - just us.
That being said, I think that a big part was attributed to the very healthy view of what marriage is aside for the physical part, before the Kalla classes begin.
Never seeing a frum couple hug or kiss, even not knowing that they do, made it all that more holy. It is indeed something very private. I wasn't affected by it at all. B"h I have a beautiful marriage.

From all the parts I bolded, it seems like you simply didn't give much thought to intimacy before you were married. Which is fine and fairly healthy for a sheltered girl. And if you did think about it, it didn't make you want to vomit. Which in many opinions is NOT healthy.

RR wrote:

At the end of the day, a girl who was pretty sheltered (not drastically but sheltered enough), will have a super-duper-wonderful marriage if she has the propper guidance before her wedding. You know what? A girl who wasn't sheltered and knew so much will also need a very proper guidance before her wedding.

IMO telling a girl at 12 that kissing between married people is perverted is not proper guidance or preparation. Do you really think that 5 weeks of Kallah classes will magically undo 6, 7, 10 years of being told KISSING is bad??

MaBelleVie

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 10:53 am

amother wrote:

OP here. Had to jump back in. Please don't play the Sefardi card. Your opinion is actually not really relevant but that has nothing to do with being sefardi. I specifically requested answers from Charedi posters. This is getting a little old.

Is there a mod around that can lock this thread? I think I've heard enough unsolicited advice for today.

Freidasima, you, on the other hand, are the best! Thanks for real advice!

I'm not playing any card. You specifically asked for chareidi litvish or chassidish responses. Being chareidi sefardi, I was excluded. I wanted to make that clear in case you didn't know where I'm coming from. If you were looking for chareidi, then my opinion apparently is not relevant simply because I'm sefardi. I am very much chareidi.

I'm sorry my advice was not real enough for you. Other posters did agree with me, though, so I'm glad I put it out there.

peanut37

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 11:18 am

OP I have a question for you....

did she see more than just making out and kissing?
It seems that maybe she did, because even a very steamy makeout session in a living room should not scar a young girl especially one who knows people show love through hugs and kisses (like mother-daughter, grandmother etc, Im not even talking about two people of the oposite relations) That leap shouldn't be so far that she would be scarred for life and disgusted toward intimacy. I get the feeling that she saw more and I am sorry for you that you have to go through that with her now!

Most men don't want to think about any girl they care about having relations. My brother almost beat up my husband when we first got married because it sickened him to think that I was touching and being intimate with this guy! I think your DH should ask a rav.

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 11:41 am

peanut37 wrote:

a) I don't think she would need to see "more" to be shaken up. She witnessed a very sensitive scene and was not aware that it's okay too. If I was her, (14 yrs. old, and sheltered and viewing a frum couple) I would be shaken up too.
b) I think she may be shaken up. But I don't think she is scarred for life. She'll get over it in a few weeks, maybe less and then she may need some extra talking to or whatever.

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 11:55 am

YESHASettler wrote:

RR wrote:

agreed. (I admit I only read life's great's post and responded to it without seeing additional updates embarrassed

) I was never, never told it was bad.
Once a kid knows about it, no way should they be told it is bad. In that case, it definitely may be harder to undo the damage. She should be spoken to about it in the most tzniusdike way, and maybe gently bring her to understand that these things are real but don't apply to her now. (she may very possibly do her own "research" in this area but at least she has the backing that this is a healthy Jewish thing but only when done in the most Tzniusdik way.)
I remember when I "discovered" my mother's mikvah trips. The long time spent in the bath room or hours out of the house and coming back with a very distinct smell and smile. The way my parents acted that evening was also mysterious. So I once asked my mother about it. She explained certain things to me and it really helped me that she was open yet still kept her privacy and didn't tell me what wasn't necessary. And because of the way it was presented - Tznius - I didn't even want to go deeper. Maybe that was just me, but the Tznius aspect of it somehow made me want to keep it that way.

Last edited by RR on Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:18 pm; edited 3 times in total

Apple pie

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 11:56 am

RR wrote:

peanut37 wrote:

I also don't think she will be scarred for life if things are explained to her properly, and without lying.

To OP, don't be so sure that your daugther will not find out about the truth (and about the fact her parents lied - not a white lie but a very real lie saying something is ASSUR while it's not, according to ALL opinions)... will not find out about the truth sooner than you wish for. She is already quite distressed, has received some mixed messages for you and your husband, and will maybe try to find from other sources, or at least be open for other pieces of information...

OP, may I ask which "sect" you belong to?

Isramom8

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:06 pm

In connection with my kallah teacher training classes, in a supplementary special session, we were told specifically that if a mother and daughter pass through a park and notice a secular couple kissing, the mother should not say that behavior is disgusting or assur, but that it has its proper time and place, within marriage.

We were also trained that each child is to be educated according to her own circumstances, because each sees and hears different things at different ages, and each is exposed to different friends. Open, honest communication is essential.

Sadly, we second guess our natural mothering instincts too much. Your toras imecha was actually according to Torah. This is a mother to daughter thing; your dh need not be involved.

I would look forward to teaching a kallah whose mother responded as you did initially, and continued along those lines as the girl matured. I would have a lot more work to do with a kallah whose education mirrored your subsequent attempt at reeducation.