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Judeo-Christian tradition
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 5:21 pm
Christians often talk about the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Jews never do.

Is there such a thing? Can we talk about the Judeo-Christian tradition in any sense, or is it a fiction?
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 5:50 pm
The Christian religion is founded in Judaism. Without Judaism, Christianity doesn't exist. Christianity has to look to Judaism for a basis in their beliefs.

For example, Yoshe's last meal was the passover seder, which is why he ate an egg. This became the basis for their holiday of Easter.

Palm sunday is loosely based on our holiday of Succos.

Yoshke's existence as a messiah is based on a mistranslation of several quotes from Isaiah that are all taken out of context. We don't believe he was anything more than another Jew who lived and died.

Also, Yoshke enacted changed in the Jewish religion. His entire value is traced to the Jewish religion. Without an understanding of the Jewish religion, the Christian religion makes no sense.

Therefore, the concept of a Christian tradition is the same as Judeo-Christian tradition.

Judaism, however, does not need Christianity as a basis for its beliefs. Judaism stands alone. We don't want to identify ourselves with the Christian religion, and we don't need to. That's why Jews will never refer to our traditions as Judeo-Christian.

On the contrary, we see ourselves differently.

Christianity values celibacy, which is why their priests don't marry. Judaism values the mitzva of "being fruitful and multiply" and our leaders, our Rabbis, marry and have children.

Some sects of Christianity pray to Yoshke. In Judaism, we believe in one G-d and we only pray to one G-d. Yoshke, in our view, is a human being who died a human being.


Last edited by amother on Thu, Dec 31 2015, 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 6:08 pm
As a former Christian, I'm *fairly* familiar with the doctrines Smile

My question is, can we talk about a coherent Judeo-Christian tradition that has been the basis of Western thought, or is that a fiction in every sense?
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 6:10 pm
I think they say it because it sounds much more PC to say that the US was founded on "Judeo-Christian" values, than to say that it was founded on Christian values.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 6:11 pm
You changed your avatar too?!!!
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 6:13 pm
Yep.

It seemed appropriate for a moderator. Eagle-eyed, alert, and somewhat intimidating.
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GreenEyes26




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 6:22 pm
As I understand it, for Jews to speak of "Judeo-Chrisitian" tradition IS fiction, for the simple reason that we aren't based off any other religion. Christianity is based off us.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 8:19 pm
GreenEyes26 wrote:
As I understand it, for Jews to speak of "Judeo-Chrisitian" tradition IS fiction, for the simple reason that we aren't based off any other religion. Christianity is based off us.

Yes


In all the American history books I've read, when it spoke of Judeo-Christian beliefs, the books always discussed Yoshke, and no mention of any Jewish leaders whatsoever.

Furthermore, when these American history books discuss the values that founded the United States of America, once again, when they mention Judeo-Christian traditions, they only elaborate on those of Christianity, never mentioning Jewish traditions.

I've always felt that these history books were biased towards Christianity.


Last edited by amother on Thu, Dec 31 2015, 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gsanmb




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 8:25 pm
I don't think there's any basis for it at all, actually. I think it gives Christians a way to anchor their own faith tradition historically as well as spiritually.

But western civilization is much more a conglomeration of Greek/Roman and Christian historical values than it is a reflection of Judaism at all.

Frankly, as a overall philosophy/worldview etc. Judaism and Christianity have little in common other than the (bad) Christian translations of the Torah they call the "Old Testament" and the fact that their faith depends on the supercession of the Torah by what they call the "Gospel" ("good news").

If you really examine the philosophical and historical roots of western civilization, it is very clear that any echoes of Jewish thought are very faint indeed.

The term makes me cringe -- as a Jew, and also as an academic who studies these things -- but strangely it is an 'accepted wisdom.' Interestingly the usage of the term is much more characteristic of discourse in the USA than in Europe.
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Nomad




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 8:32 pm
"My question is, can we talk about a coherent Judeo-Christian tradition that has been the basis of Western thought, or is that a fiction in every sense?"

I believe it is fiction to sat that judeo-christian thought has influenced western thought. it is not judeo thought that influenced western thinking. rather it is christian and roman thought that has influenced both jewish thinking as well as western civilization in general.

in general, I find that term kind of a paradox since I thought that essentially christianity is supposed to override judaism.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 8:35 pm
Gsanmb wrote:


But western civilization is much more a conglomeration of Greek/Roman and Christian historical values than it is a reflection of Judaism at all.


Very true.
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Ima2NYM_LTR




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 8:43 pm
I remember in my senior year humanities class, whenever the teacher mentioned "Judeo-Christian" or "hebraic" it would set my teeth on edge. there IS NO Judeo-Christian. There is Christian trying to pass itself off as having Jewish roots, but don't blame US for all their dark-age pagan ideals.
As an aside, in his mind those terms stood for backwards, mindlessly following orders and lack of new thought. "hellenistic" on the other hand, was forward thinking and open to new ideas, questioning the world around you (he was greek, btw)
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cookiemilk




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 8:59 pm
I dont know if it sets me on edge as much as it disappoints me. For instance when my professor would talk about the violent wars in the name of G-d, between the religious groups during the middle and dark ages, he always failed to mention that the Jews took no part in them. We were the oppressed and not the oppressors. We are not a warrior religion and as much as you try to lump us in with the Christains and their crusades we were usually the victims and not the instigators.
In Judiasm its all about the saving of lives and in christianity its all about the saving of souls. I think that is what bothered me the most. The way the average ignorant secularist considers Jews and Judiasm in the same catagory and guilty of the same spilling of inocent blood as Islam and Christianity. Judeo-Christian, ...the lumping together of the murderers and their victims seems a grave insult, one that is born of extreme ignorance of historical fact. In the name of G-d, and for the love of G-d!, leave us out of the uglyness, we of all people can tell you that we can claim no credit for the bloodbaths which decimated our nation.
By the way, op, are you a ger? I found your question stimulating, interesting and overdue.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 9:17 pm
cookiemilk wrote:

In Judiasm its all about the saving of lives and in christianity its all about the saving of souls. I think that is what bothered me the most. The way the average ignorant secularist considers Jews and Judiasm in the same catagory and guilty of the same spilling of inocent blood as Islam and Christianity. Judeo-Christian, ...the lumping together of the murderers and their victims seems a grave insult, one that is born of extreme ignorance of historical fact. In the name of G-d, and for the love of G-d!, leave us out of the uglyness, we of all people can tell you that we can claim no credit for the bloodbaths which decimated our nation.


Yes, a thousand times yes! Even ultra-educated people like Christopher Hitchens insist on lumping the "three monotheisms" together and portraying them as endless, mutual bloodbaths where people with a fanatic gleam in their eyes slaughtered each other in the name of G-d. (Hitch should know better...)

To answer your question, yes.

But I am also interested if, warriors and wicked men aside, there is any real philosophical continuity between Jewish, Christian, and the Greek/Roman traditions. When we study the Rambam, we see the influence of Aristotle. When we read Thomas Acquinas, we see the influence of the Rambam. Is there any truth to the concept of the "Judeo-Christian" tradition that is so endlessly bandied about today, or is it something that, however it might have been in the past, is entirely politicized and fictional today?
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 19 2010, 11:57 pm
I think Judeo-Christian is often a short-hand for VALUES, not actions that both groups have. Justice, mercy, industry etc.

I don't like the term and while of course both groups share these values, they are also shared by other religions.

Of course Judaism has affected Christianity, and the values of other cultures in which we lived. We also have been effected by other cultures. What remains fairly unique about us is that when it was standard to be "conquered and submerge or conquer and submerge" we did neither.
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JRKmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 12:06 am
I remember having fits when reading posts that mention something about Muslims "in contrast to the Judeo-Christian.....". Complete nonsense. Islam and Judaism have more in common, theologically, than either has with Christianity.

Judeo-Christian is often used, wrongly, as shorthand for Western civilization.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 12:20 am
Theologically, yes, but as you said---short hand for Western Civ. Ashkenazi Judaism is more similar culturally to Christianity.

But Judeo-Islam would be just as wrong as there are too many differences both culturally and theologically between the two groups.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 2:38 am
cookiemilk wrote:
For instance when my professor would talk about the violent wars in the name of G-d, between the religious groups during the middle and dark ages, he always failed to mention that the Jews took no part in them.

The way the average ignorant secularist considers Jews and Judiasm in the same catagory and guilty of the same spilling of inocent blood as Islam and Christianity. Judeo-Christian, ...the lumping together of the murderers and their victims seems a grave insult, one that is born of extreme ignorance of historical fact.


Not to worry! My professor thrived on CNN and spoke about us as though we Jews are murderers of innocent Palestinians. Anyone can twist history and current events to make us seem evil!!!!


Last edited by amother on Thu, Dec 31 2015, 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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KAlex




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 3:54 am
HindaRochel wrote:
Theologically, yes, but as you said---short hand for Western Civ. Ashkenazi Judaism is more similar culturally to Christianity.


I wonder if the same wasn't in many ways true for Bosnian Islam. Since you're pointing out the local influence.

Quote:
But Judeo-Islam would be just as wrong as there are too many differences both culturally and theologically between the two groups.


There are indeed. I suppose the big reason I think of them as more similar than either to Christianity is that both actually require following a practical system of law, that makes recognisable differences to daily life. (Not to deny that there are both Jews and Muslims who don't follow those, or that there are Christians who find daily ways of expressing their faith, but I still think it's a significant difference.) In my experience, however, Christians tend to have a very hard time with accepting this, as they're taught to think of their religion as an offshoot/replacement of ours, and therefore theologically don't like to admit just how far apart the two are. To generalise.
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Frum




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 4:03 am
The only 'Judeo Christian tradition' there is, I.m.o., that Jews were slaughtered by the Christian sword for centuries.
I agree with the previous posters, that they write that for the Christians it makes sense to speak about such a common tradition, since their religion is an offshoot of Judaism. Without Judaism, there would be no Christianity.

I must add that recently a lot of European politicians have recalled the 'Judeo Christian roots' of European heritage. I believe this is partly because they feel that after the Shoah they should be sensitive to the Jews, on the other hand they want to show their common heritage with Judaism, as opposed to Islam. If you think about it, if this is the way the Christians distance themselves from Islam, it makes sense for the Jews to do the same towards Christianity, no?
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