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Judeo-Christian tradition
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mae1984




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 1:15 am
cookiemilk wrote:
I dont know if it sets me on edge as much as it disappoints me. For instance when my professor would talk about the violent wars in the name of G-d, between the religious groups during the middle and dark ages, he always failed to mention that the Jews took no part in them. We were the oppressed and not the oppressors. We are not a warrior religion and as much as you try to lump us in with the Christains and their crusades we were usually the victims and not the instigators.
In Judiasm its all about the saving of lives and in christianity its all about the saving of souls. I think that is what bothered me the most. The way the average ignorant secularist considers Jews and Judiasm in the same catagory and guilty of the same spilling of inocent blood as Islam and Christianity. Judeo-Christian, ...the lumping together of the murderers and their victims seems a grave insult, one that is born of extreme ignorance of historical fact. In the name of G-d, and for the love of G-d!, leave us out of the uglyness, we of all people can tell you that we can claim no credit for the bloodbaths which decimated our nation.
By the way, op, are you a ger? I found your question stimulating, interesting and overdue.


I'm finding this debate very interesting. As a side point to the bolded part, there was a time when we were a warrior nation - however the diffrence was was that it was mainly in defence. For some reason that part of or history isn't really taught to us. Thing of Bar Kochba and the Macabi's for example. Even Rabbi Akiva one of our greatest sages sailed around the Medditeranian trying to rally the Jews together to fight against the Romans. After the exile we seem to have lost that spirit and we became the severely oppressed until the turning points of the State of Israel and the Warsaw Ghetto.
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Frum




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 2:11 am
@Mae1984: I think a crucial difference is that it is much easier to defend yourself and rise up against a different power when you have your own country, government and army. After churban bayis sheni all these things were missing, we were dispersed and didn't have the power, nor financial nor political, to organize a revolt against oppressors. Although we must never forget that throughout history, there have always been minor revolts, whether against the crusaders, moslims who were trying to convert us, the Nazi's y"s, etc.
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mae1984




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 2:19 am
Frum wrote:
@Mae1984: I think a crucial difference is that it is much easier to defend yourself and rise up against a different power when you have your own country, government and army. After churban bayis sheni all these things were missing, we were dispersed and didn't have the power, nor financial nor political, to organize a revolt against oppressors. Although we must never forget that throughout history, there have always been minor revolts, whether against the crusaders, moslims who were trying to convert us, the Nazi's y"s, etc.


I absolutely agree with you. I just think that for some reason, the part of us also once being a physically strong warrior nation has been whitewashed out of our history. These things aren't taught in schools, the stereotype of a Jew is a pious Rabbi, we are a gentle people - not a strong people (obvously this has changed a little in the last 50 odd years).
I did go completely off topic with my remark, it's just a pet peeve of mine!
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Frum




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 2:23 am
True, although I think this really depends on the type of school you look at. I teach Jewish history and I do focus a lot on the Jewish revolts. I stress though, that these revolts were only succesful when the Jews realized that their success depended on Hashem, and didn't feel that kochi we'otzem yadi asa li et hachayil haze!
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 5:46 am
I love how people forget that in biblical times, we emptied out Israel so we could live there.

Sure, we have been the oppressed since then, but our history is bloody as well.

I agree that the term is used for Judeo-Christian values. I don't think there is anything wrong with the term - Christianity is based on Judaism, so they reference the origins.

I do use this phrase when I am talking to people who have no concept of Judaism. It gives them a frame of reference.
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mae1984




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 5:50 am
saw50st8 wrote:
I love how people forget that in biblical times, we emptied out Israel so we could live there.

Sure, we have been the oppressed since then, but our history is bloody as well.


I agree that the term is used for Judeo-Christian values. I don't think there is anything wrong with the term - Christianity is based on Judaism, so they reference the origins.

I do use this phrase when I am talking to people who have no concept of Judaism. It gives them a frame of reference.


hhmm, yes, I could have mentioned that little incident too! Yehoshua was a great warrior as well a great leader, as was David etc... the image of him with a harp is not the only side of his personality!
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cookiemilk




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 11:06 am
O.k. so some of you disagree with my generalized statement that Judaism is not about war since in biblical times we did empty out Israel in the name of G-d and our religion.. On the other hand one of the main tenants of Islam is that Islamists capture and contain the unfaithful and rule over them until the whole world is under the dominion of Islam. Christianity has a similar concept where souls, mostly Jewish souls but just about any would d,o need to be saved unto Christ and until all those souls are not saved the Second Coming or the Rapture, wont happen,( is what I understand). Judiasm does have a concept of turnng the world onto an awareness of G-d as its creator, however we wont set out to kill you or convert you to get to our goals. We would like for there to be an awareness of the one Creator, however you dont have to be a Jew to acheive that awareness. So no, we are not really a warrior nation.
Off the topic a bit, the early Israelis wanted to restore the physicality and strenghth to the Jews who were beaten and bent from years of oppression in the shtetle, so they imagined Israel as a strong secular and physically fit country and people. After the halocaust- the collective guilt of the world nations who had not come to the aid of and let the 6 million Jews perish- was a bit assuaged by the arabs who were misplaced in the Israel wars since they could point to the newly physically strong Jews and call them oppressors, or a warrior nation.
So I guess we will never really win the game, because as much as our vanquishers have tried we have not been eradicated and live to defend ourselves another day.
I wonder what if anything can be said for early biblical colonialism. You see we were promised the Holy land and waged war to get it. Can anyone here explain how that still does not make us a warrior nation?
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Nomad




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 11:13 am
I guess this would be another thread - but yeah - I agree with u cookie. while I dont think we are a warrior nation - we also dont believe in "turn the other cheek" while jews have the midda of rachmanos that does not go together with them being weak.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 11:17 am
cookiemilk wrote:
O.k. so some of you disagree with my generalized statement that Judaism is not about war since in biblical times we did empty out Israel in the name of G-d and our religion.. On the other hand one of the main tenants of Islam is that Islamists capture and contain the unfaithful and rule over them until the whole world is under the dominion of Islam. Christianity has a similar concept where souls, mostly Jewish souls but just about any would d,o need to be saved unto Christ and until all those souls are not saved the Second Coming or the Rapture, wont happen,( is what I understand). Judiasm does have a concept of turnng the world onto an awareness of G-d as its creator, however we wont set out to kill you or convert you to get to our goals. We would like for there to be an awareness of the one Creator, however you dont have to be a Jew to acheive that awareness. So no, we are not really a warrior nation.
Off the topic a bit, the early Israelis wanted to restore the physicality and strenghth to the Jews who were beaten and bent from years of oppression in the shtetle, so they imagined Israel as a strong secular and physically fit country and people. After the halocaust- the collective guilt of the world nations who had not come to the aid of and let the 6 million Jews perish- was a bit assuaged by the arabs who were misplaced in the Israel wars since they could point to the newly physically strong Jews and call them oppressors, or a warrior nation.
So I guess we will never really win the game, because as much as our vanquishers have tried we have not been eradicated and live to defend ourselves another day.
I wonder what if anything can be said for early biblical colonialism. You see we were promised the Holy land and waged war to get it. Can anyone here explain how that still does not make us a warrior nation?


I don't know all the particulars but because, and the halacha varied for the different nations, but we were did not have a law of kill or convert, but rather we were told to allow the populace to escape or (and it differed according to the nation) make peace. NOT convert. As long as the nations were willing to live in peace they were given rights to live in the land. Moreover, one nation (or part of a nation) pretended they were not of those who had to be kicked out, but were of another group and that they wanted to make peace. Peace was made with them, and despite the fact that they were lied to, peace was upheld.

Much different than die or convert. Also overall status once peace was accepted, was different. "Stranger among a strange land..."

We also don't have a command to take over the world. We have some rights of expansion, but our lives are suppose to be here in Israel...we aren't meant to conquer and convert the world.

Different mindset.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 11:45 am
HindaRochel wrote:
cookiemilk wrote:
O.k. so some of you disagree with my generalized statement that Judaism is not about war since in biblical times we did empty out Israel in the name of G-d and our religion.. On the other hand one of the main tenants of Islam is that Islamists capture and contain the unfaithful and rule over them until the whole world is under the dominion of Islam. Christianity has a similar concept where souls, mostly Jewish souls but just about any would d,o need to be saved unto Christ and until all those souls are not saved the Second Coming or the Rapture, wont happen,( is what I understand). Judiasm does have a concept of turnng the world onto an awareness of G-d as its creator, however we wont set out to kill you or convert you to get to our goals. We would like for there to be an awareness of the one Creator, however you dont have to be a Jew to acheive that awareness. So no, we are not really a warrior nation.
Off the topic a bit, the early Israelis wanted to restore the physicality and strenghth to the Jews who were beaten and bent from years of oppression in the shtetle, so they imagined Israel as a strong secular and physically fit country and people. After the halocaust- the collective guilt of the world nations who had not come to the aid of and let the 6 million Jews perish- was a bit assuaged by the arabs who were misplaced in the Israel wars since they could point to the newly physically strong Jews and call them oppressors, or a warrior nation.
So I guess we will never really win the game, because as much as our vanquishers have tried we have not been eradicated and live to defend ourselves another day.
I wonder what if anything can be said for early biblical colonialism. You see we were promised the Holy land and waged war to get it. Can anyone here explain how that still does not make us a warrior nation?


I don't know all the particulars but because, and the halacha varied for the different nations, but we were did not have a law of kill or convert, but rather we were told to allow the populace to escape or (and it differed according to the nation) make peace. NOT convert. As long as the nations were willing to live in peace they were given rights to live in the land. Moreover, one nation (or part of a nation) pretended they were not of those who had to be kicked out, but were of another group and that they wanted to make peace. Peace was made with them, and despite the fact that they were lied to, peace was upheld.

Much different than die or convert. Also overall status once peace was accepted, was different. "Stranger among a strange land..."

We also don't have a command to take over the world. We have some rights of expansion, but our lives are suppose to be here in Israel...we aren't meant to conquer and convert the world.

Different mindset.


Islam doesn't command them to convert Christians or Jews. We are dhimmi.

And Judaism talks about us enslaving the righteous gentiles during Moshiach.

Can you imagine if someone came to you and said "Hey, this is my house now cuz G-d said so. Either move away or I'll kill you?" Nice, huh?
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 12:21 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
HindaRochel wrote:
cookiemilk wrote:
O.k. so some of you disagree with my generalized statement that Judaism is not about war since in biblical times we did empty out Israel in the name of G-d and our religion.. On the other hand one of the main tenants of Islam is that Islamists capture and contain the unfaithful and rule over them until the whole world is under the dominion of Islam. Christianity has a similar concept where souls, mostly Jewish souls but just about any would d,o need to be saved unto Christ and until all those souls are not saved the Second Coming or the Rapture, wont happen,( is what I understand). Judiasm does have a concept of turnng the world onto an awareness of G-d as its creator, however we wont set out to kill you or convert you to get to our goals. We would like for there to be an awareness of the one Creator, however you dont have to be a Jew to acheive that awareness. So no, we are not really a warrior nation.
Off the topic a bit, the early Israelis wanted to restore the physicality and strenghth to the Jews who were beaten and bent from years of oppression in the shtetle, so they imagined Israel as a strong secular and physically fit country and people. After the halocaust- the collective guilt of the world nations who had not come to the aid of and let the 6 million Jews perish- was a bit assuaged by the arabs who were misplaced in the Israel wars since they could point to the newly physically strong Jews and call them oppressors, or a warrior nation.
So I guess we will never really win the game, because as much as our vanquishers have tried we have not been eradicated and live to defend ourselves another day.
I wonder what if anything can be said for early biblical colonialism. You see we were promised the Holy land and waged war to get it. Can anyone here explain how that still does not make us a warrior nation?


I don't know all the particulars but because, and the halacha varied for the different nations, but we were did not have a law of kill or convert, but rather we were told to allow the populace to escape or (and it differed according to the nation) make peace. NOT convert. As long as the nations were willing to live in peace they were given rights to live in the land. Moreover, one nation (or part of a nation) pretended they were not of those who had to be kicked out, but were of another group and that they wanted to make peace. Peace was made with them, and despite the fact that they were lied to, peace was upheld.

Much different than die or convert. Also overall status once peace was accepted, was different. "Stranger among a strange land..."

We also don't have a command to take over the world. We have some rights of expansion, but our lives are suppose to be here in Israel...we aren't meant to conquer and convert the world.

Different mindset.


Islam doesn't command them to convert Christians or Jews. We are dhimmi.

And Judaism talks about us enslaving the righteous gentiles during Moshiach.

Can you imagine if someone came to you and said "Hey, this is my house now cuz G-d said so. Either move away or I'll kill you?" Nice, huh?


There is no "enslavement" after the Moshiach... I have learned about this. It isn't slavery as we conceive of it, but rather leadership versus workers. In any case, we will all be living a different status then, and it will be a time of peace and contentment. Whatever the final status of all, there will be no hate, jealousy, or suffering. Contrast that with the "end of times" version of both Christians and Muslims. Not a very nice place to be at all.

Yes there was a dhimmini status,but the whole treatment of dhimmini's is cruel, and mass murder and forced conversions did occur as well as other types of violent persuasion, including,including removing forcibly removing children from a mother after the father has died and raising them as Muslims. Kidnapping of women was and still occurs today in some countries, though usually now the focus is on Christians I believe.

That we did a bit better under Muslims than Christians in the past, and that we do a bit better under Christians than Muslims now, doesn't mean that life was good under either group. There is considerably less anti-Semitism in the USA now then in most other places, still in 2008, 66.1 of all religious hate crimes were against Jews.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 1:10 pm
sequoia wrote:
Christians often talk about the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Jews never do.

Is there such a thing? Can we talk about the Judeo-Christian tradition in any sense, or is it a fiction?


You may not be listening to the Jewish right-wing talk show hosts. It's a convenient shorthand, and a 20th - this part of the 21st century so far phenomenon. Anything can turn on a dime...
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 1:21 pm
Atali wrote:
Yep.

It seemed appropriate for a moderator. Eagle-eyed, alert, and somewhat intimidating.
It looks like you need a shave.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 20 2010, 4:54 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
sequoia wrote:
Christians often talk about the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Jews never do.

Is there such a thing? Can we talk about the Judeo-Christian tradition in any sense, or is it a fiction?


You may not be listening to the Jewish right-wing talk show hosts. It's a convenient shorthand, and a 20th - this part of the 21st century so far phenomenon. Anything can turn on a dime...


Good point. I meant, religious Jews do not refer to this tradition.
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Mrs Bissli




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 03 2010, 5:02 pm
HindaRochel wrote:
Theologically, yes, but as you said---short hand for Western Civ. Ashkenazi Judaism is more similar culturally to Christianity.

But Judeo-Islam would be just as wrong as there are too many differences both culturally and theologically between the two groups.


Really? Note majority of jews fleeing Spanish inquisition moved to muslim countries. I'm also not sure what you mean by Ashkenazi judaism being more culturally similar to Christianity, aside from geography.

On overall topic, I sometimes wonder why christians refer to their predecessor religion and refers to Judeo-Christian tradition, while I'm not much aware of muslims doing the same and referring to Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition. Quran has definitely many reference to events in Torah and christian bible. That's why I come to consider the phrase simply refers to western philosophy as opposed to eastern or islam philosophy. But then referring the former as Judeo-Christian would be a misnomer considering a large part derives from Greco-Roman philosophies (think Socratic method) which are neither Judaic or Christian.

Interesting discussion, nevertheless.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 03 2010, 9:30 pm
Mrs Bissli wrote:
HindaRochel wrote:
Theologically, yes, but as you said---short hand for Western Civ. Ashkenazi Judaism is more similar culturally to Christianity.

But Judeo-Islam would be just as wrong as there are too many differences both culturally and theologically between the two groups.


Really? Note majority of jews fleeing Spanish inquisition moved to muslim countries. I'm also not sure what you mean by Ashkenazi judaism being more culturally similar to Christianity, aside from geography.

.


Compare the cultures and what is and what is not considered important. I'm not limiting myself to frum Jews but Jews in general, nor am I making religious references.

Koran does refer to both Christian and Jewish text, but the references are often anachronistic and contain historical errors. But Judaism most assuredly is the mother religion of both groups.

I've always disliked the reference, but I can understand it from a cultural point of view.
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entropy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 04 2010, 12:29 am
Mrs Bissli wrote:
I sometimes wonder why christians refer to their predecessor religion and refers to Judeo-Christian tradition


I think christians do this as a veiled auto-critique device. As in "yeah, our religeon has all these primitive elements that hold us back culturally, but it's really the fault of the Jews. The non-Jewish aspect of christianity is perfect of course"
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 04 2010, 2:06 am
entropy wrote:
Mrs Bissli wrote:
I sometimes wonder why christians refer to their predecessor religion and refers to Judeo-Christian tradition


I think christians do this as a veiled auto-critique device. As in "yeah, our religeon has all these primitive elements that hold us back culturally, but it's really the fault of the Jews. The non-Jewish aspect of christianity is perfect of course"


Depends on the denomination.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 04 2010, 6:21 am
HindaRochel wrote:
Mrs Bissli wrote:
HindaRochel wrote:
Theologically, yes, but as you said---short hand for Western Civ. Ashkenazi Judaism is more similar culturally to Christianity.

But Judeo-Islam would be just as wrong as there are too many differences both culturally and theologically between the two groups.


Really? Note majority of jews fleeing Spanish inquisition moved to muslim countries. I'm also not sure what you mean by Ashkenazi judaism being more culturally similar to Christianity, aside from geography.

.


Compare the cultures and what is and what is not considered important. I'm not limiting myself to frum Jews but Jews in general, nor am I making religious references.

Koran does refer to both Christian and Jewish text, but the references are often anachronistic and contain historical errors. But Judaism most assuredly is the mother religion of both groups.

I've always disliked the reference, but I can understand it from a cultural point of view.


Just to clarify, by anachronistic and historical errors what's meant is really bad distortions that contradict what is actually in Tanach. It's one thing to say, this is what happened but it's irrelevant in the light of the "NT" and another to say, this is how it really happened. You can't quite claim Tanach as part of the history.
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Inspired




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 04 2010, 6:30 am
sequoia wrote:
Christians often talk about the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Jews never do.

Is there such a thing? Can we talk about the Judeo-Christian tradition in any sense, or is it a fiction?


It is completely a christian thing to say. I once read an article that spoke about the "judeo-christian idea of original sin" Rolling Eyes

The only thing "judeo" in christianity is its origins. Everything else that is shared between the two is shared in other religions as well. Including many bible things, Judaism, Christainity and Islam share an abrahamic tradition and many common stories.
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