Lilith - what do we know about her?

HindaRochel

Mon, Sep 27 2010, 2:02 pm

MamaBird wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Demonology is not part of Torah and has nothing to do with Olam habah. How can I believe in olam habah and not believe in shadim and the like? Easy. I believe that G-d created heaven and earth, endowed human beings with reasoning powers, gave them free will which allows them to choose between following Torah (and yes for non-Jews, that would be 7 laws of Noah). Following Torah equals olam habah. Tsueva equals olam habah.

Blaming magical beings for your troubles; worthless.

btw, she doesn't like girls are girls just don't get protected? (My sons survived just fine without any protection from lilith.)

Although I agree that blaming "magical beings" for your troubles is worthless, as you said, sheidim are very real. The gemara talks in detail about sheidim in many aspects. It actually describes a way that one can actually see them, although the person that tried it went completely insane. I can get back to you with the exact location if you'd like. Some beings are not magical or fictional just because we cannot see them. I agree that sometimes people may take things too far and turn yiddishkeit into spiritual pursuits that involve mysticism and magic, but that does not discredit real spiritual factors that are just as much part of the system as you and me.

I said shadim are NOT real. They do NOT exist. What exists is people behaving badly.
And people claim that if you look in a mirror and say Bloody Mary however many times she'll tear off your face. (Or Candyman as I eluded to early or half a dozen other such...it really happened stories heard 17th hand to someone someone's some relation knew.)

I knew someone who was certain a particular doll contained an evil spirit, and worried about all the clocks her parents had around. I believe she was schizophrenic. The doll wasn't evil and wasn't going to kill her father and warn her mother to be nice. It was a doll. She was mentally unstable. Therefore evil spirits were true for her.

A Rabbi I know performed an exorcism on a slightly unstable young woman. It worked. She was also lacking in much knowledge of yiddishkeit, had a problem, like many young girls with her mother, and didn't know what the havdalah service was, so when the Rabbi repeated the havdalah service and yanked away a necklace she constantly wore that was given to her by her mother, guess what? She was cured. No more dybuk.

Our spiritual lives come from us; yes what we CHOOSE to come in contact with effects us, but in the same way that anything we come in contact with effects us: because we allow ideas into our minds that we will ponder and think about and wonder about and these ideas can lead us to actions which are assur.

BUT there's no evil beings rushing about trying to trip us up.

shanie5

Mon, Sep 27 2010, 5:42 pm

I remember hearing that if a baby laughs in their sleep, it means lilith is with them in their dream and the baby should be woken up to remove her presence.

sequoia

Mon, Sep 27 2010, 5:47 pm

I must agree entirely with HR. We have a pure monotheism, and I do not see how independently acting "bad spirits" can jive with that.

causemommysaid

Mon, Sep 27 2010, 6:58 pm

sequoia wrote:

I must agree entirely with HR. We have a pure monotheism, and I do not see how independently acting "bad spirits" can jive with that.

agree as well. I never even heard of this spirit before imamother. if she was such an integral part of judaism you would have thought some teacher would have mentioned it at some point in my school career

Mon, Sep 27 2010, 7:28 pm

sequoia wrote:

I must agree entirely with HR. We have a pure monotheism, and I do not see how independently acting "bad spirits" can jive with that.

What she said!
Thumbs Up

chocolate moose

Mon, Sep 27 2010, 8:08 pm

Lampy, I'm sorry - dh says the same that I do, that what he knows he just knows, not from sources.

MamaBird

Sun, Oct 10 2010, 7:50 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

MamaBird wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

I think we're touching on different ideas here. I agree with you that demons are not somehow possessing people to act in a certain way. Every person has bechira to do/ act in whatever way he or she decides. Blaming a demon's possession is ridiculous. However, unlike the christian idea that Satan is a being that exists to work against Gd, Judaism maintains that Satan and any other evil beings are still carrying out the ratzon Hashem. They do not possess people... that dibbuk story you mentioned is a very rare kind, and I'm not so quick to believe these stories with all the drama they claim to contain. On a personal note, dh had a sheid in one of his apartments (confirmed by rabbeim flown in fom israel) so if I wasn't convinced by the gemara.... his personal story is plenty convincing. As I said before, these beings do exist, and are all part of Hashem's system He created.

yummymummy

Sun, Oct 10 2010, 8:09 pm

MamaBird wrote:

I've just got to know, why did the rabonim flown in from Israel say this sheid was "haunting" (for lack of a better word) this apartment and what did they do the remove the sheid? And while we are at it, why did your DH suspect there was a sheid in the partment in the first place?

Ima2NYM_LTR

Sun, Oct 10 2010, 8:21 pm

((I was beginning to think I was the only orthodox Jew who didnt believe in things that go bump in the night. Glad to know Im not alone))

amother

Sun, Oct 10 2010, 9:36 pm

definitely heard bout them and believe that they exist.

they cannot harm ppl nowadays, they were banished from any place where humans live. I learned that some big tzaddik many years ago did that to them...
that is why we avoid parks at night.....

for all that don't believe in shai/dim
what about ashmid/ai and king david... all those stories..???
wasn't he the king of the shei'/dim..?

one should not close up a window without leaving a little hole == what's that all about? I think shei'/dim

my parents had windows closed when they moved into new house.. my mom heard noises like tin cans rolling on cement... a few misfortunes happened right after they moved in... once they closed the window it all went away/noises and all....

dunno!

I believe they exist but they cannot do anything without Hashem's will......

Ima2NYM_LTR

Sun, Oct 10 2010, 10:51 pm

amother
You just said in the same post "they cannot harm ppl nowadays, they were banished from any place where humans live. " and "that is why we avoid parks at night", "... once they closed the window it all went away/noises and all."

Dont you realize you are contradicting yourself?

If they cannot harm people nowadays, then why should you still be worried about them/

The only demons I concern myself with in the parks at night are rapists, kidnappers, muggers and molesters, etc

yummymummy

Sun, Oct 10 2010, 11:08 pm

I found this to be a great alternative explanation for the phenomenon termed "shadim"

http://www.mesora.org/shadim.html

Pizza

Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:56 am

can't there be things we don't understand?

I come from a combo brisker - chassidish background, and while I am all for rationalism, there needs to be a certain respect for parts of the briah that are beyond our ken. I don't know why HKB"H would include them in the briah, and what role they play; I do know that there are things out there that I dont 'get' , and that despite their existence, we don't need to include them in our lives.

that said, they may, at times, include themselves in our lives, at which point gedolim and mekubalim are called into the picture, since they 'get' more than we do, of the whole picture.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Mon, Oct 11 2010, 7:48 am

Pizza
The reason I cant believe in these things is because I have total emunah in HaShem. Im not saying that someone who believes differently doesnt, its just for me this is part of the package. IMHO, If Hashem protects us, or doles out punishment as he sees fit -but in the end he is the architect of our lives, then 'other' things have no power or pull. I cant fear something that has no power over me.

Furthermore, we have enough demons in this world that we dont have to imagine other, supernatural ones. Just turn on the nightly news- demons enough for all of us