"Army thread" spinoff-explaining different hashkaf

amother

Mon, Oct 11 2010, 9:27 pm

We live in a small OOT kiruv community. We represent the "chareidi" side of the community (my dh is part of the outreach kollel), and there are a few other families like that, there are also a bunch of modern(Americans)/masorti (Israeli) people here. Finally, there is a large non-frum crowd - people who are intersted, and many of them slowly growing in Yiddishkeit, but not shomer shabbos or tznius etc.

My oldest son is 4, so this hasn't been an issue until now. In the summer he once asked me why I don't wear t-shirts and shorts like him and his little brother, to which I answered (without thinking too much embarrassed

) that it's not tznius and mommys dont dress like that. Well, 5 minutes later he saw a lady outside and told me "look mommy, she has short sleeves and shorts, she is not tznius!!". Since then, every time we see a non-tznius lady he excitedly points it out... It got even worse, when he saw one of his friends' mothers (in gan) dressed like that and asked me how come she is wearing shorts? I tried telling him that he shouldn't ask loudly because it might make the lady feel bad, or that some people "don't know".

I know there is a difference between someone more modern following his psak halacha vs someone who is not frum and just doesnt care.

How would you handle this with a 4 year old?

Avrahamamma

Mon, Oct 11 2010, 11:57 pm

when I got married my cousin's daughter wanted to know why I was wearing a wig. I told her married ladies need to cover their hair. she then asked me why her mother didn't cover her hair. I told her that there are 613 mitzvot to do and her mommy hadn't crossed that mitzvah off her list yet. we then went on to name all the other mitzvot her mother DID do. she was satisfied with that answer.

MommyZ

Tue, Oct 12 2010, 12:04 am

Avrahamamma wrote:

Not all Rabbis pasken that women have to cover their hair. I would say that my Rabbi says women should cover their hair.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Oct 12 2010, 3:24 am

Avrahamamma wrote:

If I were her mother, I would be very UNsatisfied with that answer. In fact, it would make me angry. It's not your business to tell her daughter which mitzvah her mom does or does not keep. As others have said, there are those who believe it's not even necessary. But even if it were something black and white, like driving on Shabbat, I would be angry.
You should have just told her that YOU believe married women should cover their hair, not that this is the way it MUST be done. Remember, she has a mom to educate her, and you are not there to tell her what needs or does not need to be done.
As to why her mother doesn't cover her hair? Why would you presume to answer? Tell her to ask her mom.

chanchy123

Tue, Oct 12 2010, 4:19 am

On Chol Hamoed we took the train to Azrieli Mall in TA and walked around for about 20 minutes before we took the train back to the car. Anyhow, DD (5.5) sees a woman wearing a sundress - and she proceeds to point at her and shout, that woman is not tznius (haisha hazot lo tznua). So I said, you're right, she isn't dressed tzniusticly, but we don't point at other people and comment about the way they dress. We should worry about ourselves and make sure we do the right thing and not look at others (however, in a kiruv envioronment this may be different).
Also, we're not chareidi, so we have newspapers, and watch some TV programs online. So DD does have the opportunity to point out pictures in the newspaper or on the computer and say they are not tznius (without being rude...) and we can enforce our values.
How do you address people driving on shabbat?
When we would go to my ILs in BB (not the part of BB you guys are all thinking about). The kids would say that they are doing מה שה' לא מרשה, which is true.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Oct 12 2010, 4:35 am

Isramom8 wrote:

I might say they don't know about that mitzvah, or they don't understand how important it is.

I think that's a good response when dealing with your own children. However, if other's children ask, one shouldn't presume to tell them why their mom doesn't keep this or that mitzvah. Imagine if your (generic you) child asked your secular neighbour why your family can't watch tv on Shabbat. Imagine your secular neighbour said, well, your family doesn't 'know' that it's allowed.

ABC

Tue, Oct 12 2010, 4:57 am

I start by saying everyone is a tselem elokim and we should work hard to try and understand other people and love them just like Hashem does.

I then explain that everyone is different, and different people understand things differently. There is no black and white. We work hard to be good Jews and ask our Rav what's the best way to do things, and we don't judge other people. When it comes to tsnius, I also teach my girls and boys that its not just about how long your sleeves are, it's also about how you behave, and that pointing and staring at other people is also untsnius. I teach them that there are a lot of very good people out there who do a lot of good things, and they don't have to be just like us.

It's not an easy concept but we have non-frum family who we see all the time and I dont want my kids judging them or looking at what they are doing 'wrong' in our eyes.

Isramom8

Tue, Oct 12 2010, 7:46 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

I might say they don't know about that mitzvah, or they don't understand how important it is.

I tell my kids regarding certain things about my own practices which may not be super-machmir, I wasn't raised that way - it's hard to do things differently from the way one was raised.

amother

Tue, Oct 12 2010, 10:17 am

ABC wrote:

But the problem with this approach is that it makes everything sound…optional I guess is the word I would use. Meaning, you can be a wonderful person but you can almost chose to keep certain mitzvos. If I want to instill importance of shmiras hamitzvos in my children from a young age, this approach is too wishy-washy. [I am not picking on you, ABC, but your response is similar to a few others on this thread].

When you see people in the street once in a while, it’s different but when the child sees the same people day in and day out (parents of his friends etc) you can’t just say “they don’t know” because his immediate response to that has been “so tell them!”

I don’t think such young children can understand the concept of “shivim panim”…

HindaRochel

Tue, Oct 12 2010, 10:30 am

amother wrote:

ABC wrote:

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Which is why I think saying as someone else pointed out, "Because our Rabbi says we do XYZ. Many Rabbi's say that ABC. "

MommyZ

Tue, Oct 12 2010, 10:36 am

amother wrote:

ABC wrote:

Then how about we all try to do our best to serve Hashem or how someone else dresses is not our concern. We do it our way. Teaching children to mind their manners and mind their own business is also a good idea in addition to teaching them tznius kashrus etc.