What do you think of Amen Seudas/Seudat Amen?

freidasima

Mon, Oct 18 2010, 3:04 pm

All my girls have been to it because it's a fad.
That's the problem.
there is no source for it, and no source that says it's a segula.
As Rav Aviner wrote about it, it's a "made up" segula which may be nice but has no tradition in yiddishkeit of any eda...
I agree that if it is for someone's refuah it would be better if all the girls get together to say tehilim rather than to say "amen".
As it is, there are shitos which claim that women don't even have to make brochos but rather that all their actions dealing with family, children, taking care of younger siblings, etc. are their avodas hashem...

freidasima

Mon, Oct 18 2010, 3:12 pm

I've heard sefaradi rabbonim argue that one, that the women's avodas hashem is in domestic chores (ever hear "cleaning for moshiach?") and therefore they are potur from brochos as they are always in the kitchen tasting and cooking etc. It's part of their daily activity and therefore they don't have to make brochos on it. Also women are not considered intelligent creatures and therefore they are mouthing words without understanding them and don't have to make brochos, certainly not beshem umalchus.

No most rabbonim do not hold by this shita but I have heard it (and was amazed/appaled) by it...

shlomitsmum

Mon, Oct 18 2010, 3:26 pm

freidasima wrote:

OMG Which sefardi Rabbi??? Never heard of this at all .... I know you are bored and feeling a tad lonely in the main board Rolling Eyes

and maybe hoping to get things going ... but PLEASE do not pick on Sephardi Rabbis THAT is not acceptable,and as a Sephardi I can tell you it is offensive regardless of how bored you might feel...

I was taught that we are only excluded from brachos that do not apply to us eg :brocha on lulav to bring a recent example.

Haredi have a safe closed forum ..so Sephardim are it now??? Keep off the Sephardi minhagim will you,it can only incite negativity.....Thank you!

sequoia

Mon, Oct 18 2010, 4:55 pm

shlomitsmum wrote:

freidasima wrote:

OMG Which sefardi Rabbi??? Never heard of this at all .... I know you are bored and feeling a tad lonely in the main board Rolling Eyes

Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean there aren't rabbis who hold this way. No one is picking on anyone.

shlomitsmum

Mon, Oct 18 2010, 8:51 pm

sequoia wrote:

shlomitsmum wrote:

freidasima wrote:

OMG Which sefardi Rabbi??? Never heard of this at all .... I know you are bored and feeling a tad lonely in the main board Rolling Eyes

Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean there aren't rabbis who hold this way. No one is picking on anyone.

whatever....each group has it's nutbars, I'm asking names or sources so people see that those who might hold this way are fringe types....why? cause when a potentially explosive allegation like this is made/implied those not familiar with our mingagim/culture might get the wrong impression Sad

....nasty stereotypes about sephardi males are quite common already and as a mum of a young boy ,I feel compelled to challenge statements for the sake of his future .
Plus the fact could have been stated without using the identifying label ,restraint is shown with other groups ...or is that old news??? .

Simple1

Mon, Oct 18 2010, 9:15 pm

freidasima wrote:

Sfardim in general are stricter with Brachos and Hashem's name - Tefilas Haderch I think is said without Hashem's name (for men or woman). Regarding the bolded - it's sounds too comical to be offensive, lol! But never ever heard of woman not saying Brachos.

Rodent

Mon, Oct 18 2010, 10:59 pm

freidasima wrote:

My sepharadi rabbi husband says that anyone that says that is not a rabbi. It is basic basic basic halacha that women say berachot. And he says that anyone that makes the comments about women not being intelligent is not human.

There are morons in all facets of the community. The fact that these ones are sepharadi is quite irrelevant.

SavtaHelen

Tue, Oct 19 2010, 1:03 am

We held one in our home when our granddaughter was struggling for her life. Actually we held two, my DD arranged a second one for her friends.

Our Rav said that it was a powerful expression of faith in HaShem. He gave an excellent d'var Torah. He explained that AMEN stood for Kel Melech Neeman and that we were affirming our belief in HaShem with each bracha, channelling all these l00 brachot to HaShem, asking Him for a refuah shlema.

I did it because I would have done anything to help her. I found it to be a very powerful, moving and emotional experience.

Maybe the experience is relative to the need....no matter what the result.

ChossidMom

Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:36 am

When I was in the States this summer I was staying in the Five Towns. They have the "Ohel Sara" Amen group, in the memory of Sarit Marton a"h, at her parents' house.

A bunch of women get together every morning at 8:15 and start to daven (to themselves). When they get to Birkos Hashachar they take turns - they go around the room and whoever wants to makes the brachos and everyone answers Amen. When everyone finishes (or at 8:45) everyone finishes davening to themselves, and afterwards there is often a shiur or two.

I found the experience very powerful, although I know that there are people who are not comfortable doing it. There were all kinds of women there, from the entire spectrum of frumkeit. One thing in common - they all wanted to make brochos and answer Amen to others'. There was a very special atmosphere there.

I look forward to going back on my next trip next month.

chanchy123

Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:51 am

Simple1 wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Now that I've read the bolded I see this is quite offensive.
I've never heard of Sphardi rabbanim holding that women don't make brachot nehenin - only birchot hamitzvot which is because they do not have the chiyuv obligation of said mitzvot (however they do say brachot for women's mitzvot - mikva, candle lighting, challah, etc). Also women don't say some of the brachot in davening.
The reasoning is halachig logic not misogynist streotypes. I believe that great rabbanim pasken according to Torah considerations not according to your misconceptions of the way Sphardim consider women.
I don't understand why some people here consider Sphardic to be a derech or hashkafa. In Israel, you can be Sphardi or Ashkenazi plus whatever group. Being Sphardi means you pasken slightly diffrently than Ashkenazim, have different tunes for zmirot and davening, serve differnt foods on shabat and chagim, etc.

quickchef

Tue, Oct 19 2010, 3:57 am

Mixed feelings... it feels so contrived... yet the mitzvah of amen is so powerful...

On a related note... my husband showed me a text message he got - about an AMEN HOTLINE... you say a bracha, and someone will answer amen to it... (Separate phone numbers for men and women).

Now that's something that makes more sense to me... and I thought it was a very original and nice idea.

I love to see creativity... especially used to enhance yiddishkeit...

Mrs Bissli

Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:04 pm

freidasima wrote:

Yeah, I'm also amazed and appalled. If someone argues that you don't have to make berachot on daily/frequent activities, noone would be saying asher yatzar, no? Dan lekaf zechut, my (and DH's) personal experience is many of sephardim rabbis we know go an extra length to find leniency, of course within strict halachic boundary. On the other hand, we make a BIG deal out of making extra berachot especially when it comes to food. For example, we often serve small noshes for berachot before washing for motzi.

Having said that, the concept of Amen parties is foreign to me. It sounds more like what some nice born-again xtian ladies would do over potluck lunches on Sundays in the Bible Belt. What's wrong with our traditional tehillim meets?

freidasima

Tue, Oct 19 2010, 2:17 pm

Folks, shoot the one who wrote the message, not the messenger.
I'm just telling you that there are sefaradi, mizrachi, oriental, call them whatever you want, they are not vus vusim, yeah? rabbonim who consider women to be very inferior and unlearned creatures. That, it seems, was true in their youth in wherever they came from where women were illiterate, not allowed out of the house alone as they couldn't be trusted with money, and were there basically for three tasks - to be a bedmate, to cook and to clean.

They weren't entrusted with anything else in some places...yeah ever hear of the berber and the morrocan mountain Jews of the beginning of the century? Women there really WERE not only illeterate and uneducated but were treated by their men as slaves...very very different than those in Casablanca, marrakesh or any cities.

In short, so much is a social construct right? Well in these places it seems women were truly considered...only "half people" or rather full people with half brains. Hence they weren't chayav brochos. I never asked about mikva as I never spoke personally to any of these rabbonim but only read their psikos and learned about them. But guess what? Who cares! There are lots of rabbonim who unfortunately have written lots of what looks to us like narishkeit but in the framework of their time and their communities it made absolutely sense...and not only in this example but in many others that later become fodder for arguments, not only in imamother but in real life as well..