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Forum
-> Relationships
-> Manners & Etiquette
batya_d
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 Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:47 am
After several years away from imamother, I got remarried this summer B"H, and I have a question that I need help understanding.
There were a large number of people at our wedding who came as seated guests, and brought no gift or check. These people cut across all boundaries-- close friends and not so close, single and married, all types of frum-- but all frum. The people who could afford to give but didn't, are clearly just thoughtless. I'm more interested in what the mentality is, of those who genuinely could not afford to give, but came to eat at the wedding.
I can imagine explanations for this. I realize that frum people often go to a wedding every week, or more. To give even a moderate gift to each couple could be financially crushing. So, they decide to go to be mesameach, rather than forego the simcha entirely.
I'm not asking that people not come, and I'm not asking them to confess to me that they can't afford to give. I'm not asking them to even give a card, or something homemade (which I think is fine but I can see why it might be embarrassing for the giver)
There is an easy way out of this-- if you can't afford to give, RSVP that you will attend dancing only. Don't take a paid seat. What's the shame in this? It avoids the issue entirely, and would seem to be a perfect solution.
I'm a BT. This is absolutely unthinkable to me. Help me understand why this is ok in many frum circles. I may come off as ungrateful here, but that's really not it-- I'm just confused about how people rationalize it, since it's just so foreign to me!
ETA: the fast that the was my second wedding is irrelevant IMO, as it is my dh's first marriage, and not one of the non-givers was in attendance at my first wedding, so none had given me a gift previously.
Last edited by batya_d on Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ruchel
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:02 pm
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I don't know. Not every wedding has the option to be only for dancing. It may be for everything, or chuppa and dinner. I don't think it's polite to bring nothing. If people are invited to a wedding a week (I cannot imagine even one a month), they should choose.
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TzenaRena
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:04 pm
You said yourself it was a remarriage.
Usually those are small affairs, and if you were invited to that, you are probably a very close friend. Close friends are happy to share your simcha, and take the time to attend more of it, sometimes coming from far away, or a different neighborhood. It doesn't make sense to make a whole trip for a few minutes of simchas choson v'kallah which is later in the evening. Others may think you would be insulted that they didn't come early and stay for the whole wedding.
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amother
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:05 pm
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I have the same question. I'm also BT. When I know I can't afford to bring a check to the wedding, I send a card and don't go. If it's a close friend, I only come for chuppa. I will not feel comfortable staying for the entire wedding and bringing nothing.
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batya_d
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:08 pm
| TzenaRena wrote: | You said yourself it was a remarriage.
Usually those are small affairs, and if you were invited to that, you are probably a very close friend. Close friends are happy to share your simcha, and take the time to attend more of it, sometimes coming from far away, or a different neighborhood. It doesn't make sense to make a whole trip for a few minutes of simchas choson v'kallah which is later in the evening. Others may think you would be insulted that they didn't come early and stay for the whole wedding. |
It was a normal, large, 1st wedding type simcha.
Nope, see my edit:
ETA: the fact that the was my second wedding is irrelevant IMO, as it is my dh's first marriage, and not one of the non-givers was in attendance at my first wedding, so none had given me a gift previously.
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amother
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:10 pm
I don't think it's acceptable in frum circles. Well, not mine anyway. I've never ever come across such behavior. At the events I've had here in Israel there was no option of dancing only - they count you as a guest once you pass the guard at the entrance or once you sit down, depending on event.
Never has a guest come to one of my events without a gift. The poorer ones brought a very simple book or gift, the well off ones gave a big sum of money - but no one came with empty hands. That's just very rude imo.
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1Life2Live
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:12 pm
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No offense, but it sounds like the only reason you invited people was to get gifts, or else you wouldn’t be so upset about it. In my opinion, to expect people to pay for a seat at a party that YOU’RE hosting, is selfish. Why are there so many expectations from people when they’re the ones taking time out of their day to be misameach you?
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shluchamom
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:14 pm
Gifts are something that the gifter chooses to give if they would like to otherwise its not a gift its an admission ticket. Usually when someone invites people to a simcha be it a wedding or bar mitzvah or any other you are inviting the people/person to join you in your SIMCHA because their presence will enhance your simcha. I don't think its appropriate to say or even think - I invite you to my whole wedding but you can only attend if you give me a gift.
Thats not to say that it's not more appropriate to give a gift.
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batya_d
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:15 pm
| 1Life2Live wrote: | | No offense, but it sounds like the only reason you invited people was to get gifts, or else you wouldn’t be so upset about it. In my opinion, to expect people to pay for a seat at a party that YOU’RE hosting, is selfish. Why are there so many expectations from people when they’re the ones taking time out of their day to be misameach you? |
I was waiting for this, and I explained myself thoroughly in the OP. I don't care about the money. I am culturally confused about a phenomenon, and want to know from people who understand this way of thinking better. Do you see the difference? It doesn't have to do with me and the money.
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Lani22
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:15 pm
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I would have hated if someone didnt come to my wedding b/c they couldnt afford a gift. I invited each person b/c I wanted them to be there and share in my simcha. I didnt expect to recieve a gift from every guest. One of my cousins who I know does not have alot of money actually gave us a very large check and I felt terrible!
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DefyGravity
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:17 pm
Weddings are expensive affairs and while you don't invite people in order to get gifts, it is proper etiquette for people to bring a gift/check that's is approximately what the meal cost.
It's strange that so many people attended the wedding and didn't bring a gift.
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grin
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:18 pm
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There's obviously a culture difference at work here between the frum world and those not-yet-frum.
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Fox
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:20 pm
I got into a huge fight about this kind of thing elsewhere on imamother, so I'll try to tread carefully.
Many of us here in the U.S. were raised to believe that simchas are not quid pro quo events for which an admission price must be paid. A gift is considered semi-required, but it is not considered good taste to relate it to attendance at the simcha. Regardless of the reality or the hopes of the host, the fiction is maintained that guests are invited to a simcha to share it with the host, not to somehow underwrite the event or compensate the host for the costs incurred in hosting the simcha.
Now, I realize that the mentality in EY is very different, and that simchas are viewed as "community events" to which the entire community is invited and contributes -- generally in the form of cash gifts.
I have to admit that I find the whole pay-to-play mentality to be really, really icky. Just knowing that people think this way makes me want to decline all invitations -- gosh, what if I send a gift, but it wasn't an expensive enough gift to compensate for the cost of hosting me? Then we start hearing complaints about, "I paid $75 per person and they gave us some lousy towels!" Urging people who are not "paying" for their meals to come only for dancing is interesting, but then we'll have complaints of, "They're coming only for dancing because they don't want to buy a gift or give money."
So if you live in the U.S., I strongly suggest taking one of two approaches: either make a chassunah within your budget and be pleasantly surprised if anyone gives you gifts or simply put a price at the bottom of the invitation.
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batya_d
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:22 pm
| grin wrote: | | There's obviously a culture difference at work here between the frum world and those not-yet-frum. |
I've been frum for seven years, FWIW. I'm quite acculturated, which is why this came as a particular shock!
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Barbara
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:23 pm
Mazel tov on your marriage.
I never bring a gift to a wedding. Too much risk of its being lost or stolen. The gift is mailed after the fact.
That said, while gifts are commonly given, they are not required.
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batya_d
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:28 pm
| Fox wrote: | I got into a huge fight about this kind of thing elsewhere on imamother, so I'll try to tread carefully.
Many of us here in the U.S. were raised to believe that simchas are not quid pro quo events for which an admission price must be paid. A gift is considered semi-required, but it is not considered good taste to relate it to attendance at the simcha. Regardless of the reality or the hopes of the host, the fiction is maintained that guests are invited to a simcha to share it with the host, not to somehow underwrite the event or compensate the host for the costs incurred in hosting the simcha.
Now, I realize that the mentality in EY is very different, and that simchas are viewed as "community events" to which the entire community is invited and contributes -- generally in the form of cash gifts.
I have to admit that I find the whole pay-to-play mentality to be really, really icky. Just knowing that people think this way makes me want to decline all invitations -- gosh, what if I send a gift, but it wasn't an expensive enough gift to compensate for the cost of hosting me? Then we start hearing complaints about, "I paid $75 per person and they gave us some lousy towels!" Urging people who are not "paying" for their meals to come only for dancing is interesting, but then we'll have complaints of, "They're coming only for dancing because they don't want to buy a gift or give money."
So if you live in the U.S., I strongly suggest taking one of two approaches: either make a chassunah within your budget and be pleasantly surprised if anyone gives you gifts or simply put a price at the bottom of the invitation. |
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I will reiterate that the idea that I'm weighing whether a gift was enough is a red herring. This is not about the amount of money or what gift, but *the concept of showing up empty handed*. I was MOST touched by the people who gave small gifts, like $18. It shows that they know a wedding is an occasion at which it is proper to give a gift, even a handmade one or a card.
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batya_d
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:31 pm
| Barbara wrote: | Mazel tov on your marriage.
I never bring a gift to a wedding. Too much risk of its being lost or stolen. The gift is mailed after the fact.
That said, while gifts are commonly given, they are not required. |
Thanks, Barbara!
You're right, it's not required. I'm just very interested what the reasoning is for those who do not bring, since I think most people would agree that bringing a gift is the norm.
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Lani22
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:32 pm
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are you or your husband very wealthy or come from very wealthy families? I know some ppl dont give a gift in a situation like that.
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batya_d
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:35 pm
| Lani22 wrote: | | are you or your husband very wealthy or come from very wealthy families? I know some ppl dont give a gift in a situation like that. |
We paid for our wedding ourselves, and some of the non-givers knew this. No, neither of us is from "very wealthy families".
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Raisin
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Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:42 pm
I do think it is weird. While I do not agree with the whole give a gift according to how much your meal costs mentality I think it is rude to attend a wedding and not give anything.
Possibly people are planning to send gifts and have not done so yet. We kept getting gifts up to a year after our wedding.
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