Attend wedding, bring no gift/check-- why is this ok?

Fox

Tue, Nov 30 2010, 10:51 am

shalhevet wrote:

Fox, although I disagree with a lot of what FS wrote on this thread, I think you are wrong about her praising her culture proving anything. when you live in a particular culture, you live in it, and it seems the right way to behave - no one can really objectively look at anything, because we all see it through the eyes of our culture.

Well, that's surprising given FS's praise for the value of education. One of the purposes of advanced education is not simply to prepare people to earn a parnosseh, but to enable them to view the world through different perspectives. Needless to say, you can't take this too far or you end up with extreme moral relativism. But we're talking about wedding customs; surely it is possible to praise the advantages of a particular system without trashing other people's customs (I.e., asking how one can be mesameach the chosson and kallah just by dancing or characterizing weddings with a description of sponge cake).

Tablepoetry wrote:

I'm with FriedaSima. I like the current system. It has a few disadvantages - some very social people get invited to lots of weddings in 'season', and it ends up costing them a pretty penny. Nothing's perfect. But on the whole, I FAR FAR prefer our big Israeli weddings, where everyone shows up, and everyone is free to sit next to his old childhood buddy that he hasn't seen since grade 3, to the small formal affairs which are common abroad, where you show up and get a little card telling you to go sit next to your old high school teacher or your sil or whoever and if you show up with one extra child you throw their whole seating arrangement off.

You know what, Tablepoetry? In one paragraph, you have made the best and only case yet for communal-style weddings (I'm specifically refraining from calling them "Israeli," since that obviously varies from community to community within Israel). You've pointed out the incredible advantages while admitting that nothing is perfect. And here's what you may find even more amazing: I agree with you! I wish that U.S. weddings were more like this -- regardless of how they get paid for.

Tablepoetry wrote:

I still don't see the problem. We like our set-up, we're happy with it. You like your set-up. C'est ca. Why does everyone feel the need to pour their wrath on the Israeli way of doing things? As has been said a million times before, it's just a cultural norm (FS explained it best by comparing it to an Arab breaking bread).

If that had been the nature of the discussion, we would have moved on long ago. I came to this conclusion back on page 1.

But when people are told that their customs cannot truly result in being mesameach the chosson and kallah; told that someone showing up to a wedding without a gift is crass and that there are never, ever any exceptions . . . well, yeah, people will fight back.

freidasima

Wed, Dec 01 2010, 3:25 am

Fox, Depressed, I've not been on here for two days and only reading the past two pages now and let me tell you, some of your comments directed to me PERSONALLY (and not the "Israeli system) are really nasty.
Now that's interesting. Women who talk about chessed, about giving, about all this stuff are being so nasty on a board directing it to a particular person who didn't attack them personally or write anything about THEM personally or their opinions etc...

Not nice. Simply not nice.
Fox, you lost me in most of your posts. You are obviously a university professor or some kind of academic, you lost me somewhere between relativism and jargon. My only jargon that I know is in psychology as I have to write up case reports and give workshops. Sorry, can't wrap my little brain around what half of what you wrote really means!

Sequoia thanks for giving me a translation. Now I get it.

Tablepoetry, Shal and a few others, you pretty much summed it up.
Yep, I live in Israel also known as Eretz Yisroel. And I've lived here most of my life, some of my teenage years and all of my not so short adult life. I live in a very ISRAELLI culture, I don't have many anglos in my neighborhood, my shul, or work with them. I don't live in an enclave but a pretty mixed (sefaradi, askhenazi, some russian, some frum, some not, no charedim, no ethiopians and everyone is middle class of one sort or another) area which is typical of Israeli city and town neighborhoods.

Yep, most people in the country live in places like this, and live the kind of general life that I live and my contemporaries live. And our norms are ISRAELI.

When I write on Imamother I am NOT tailoring my responses to fit tiny little anglo enclaves in EY which are the anomaly, and I am NOT tailoring my responses to fit ethiopian neighborhoods which are the anomaly and I am NOT tailoring my responses to fit nefesh benefesh olim which unfortunatly are the tiniest minority here.

Also just to get the record straight from the nastiness which I see is permeating some of your posts Depressed. I did not "dance" or "twist". You were the attacker. I explained. If an explanation is a "dance" and "twist" and "squirm" then well Rashi and Rambam did a lot of "squirming" and "dancing" and "twisting" I guess I am in good company.

There are also a lot of people who write over and over "well if that's what life is like in EY no wonder we will never go and live there".

What I wrote was what life is like in most places in EY today when it comes to weddings and I add once again, "if you don't like it no one is forcing anyone to come and live here....don't do us any favors and don't come." Because that's what it is like unless you are charedi shtark or going to live in an anglo enclave.

Last but not least, truth be told, some of you living abroad don't know zilch about what life is like among Israelis, what norms are, what customs are etc. You've never lived here or if you did for a while, it wasn't as an Israeli among Israelis but in an anglo enclave in most cases or a charedi enclave in others. That isn't the "Israeli culture" which as tablepoetry pointed out, there was a whole article making nice fun of it in one of the friday papers here in terms of weddings, it was a riot. But while we, the Israelis, who read those secular newspapers can read it and laugh and enjoy because we are laughing at oursleves, I would rather not share it with you because when you laugh at us, it's a nasty nasty laugh, of judgement and of nastiness of never having been where we are.

Difference be told, I HAVE been where you are. I come from there and know your norms. And I am here and prefer the norms here by far. But unless you shove your norms in my face and begin to make fun of mine or deconstruct them as fox did for some historical reason maybe to understand them better (are you a historian fox? I'm certainly not...) I just live them and don't shove them into your face.

But when someone comes and tries to take my life in EY apart? Making nasty comments about it? No holds barred then from what's going to come my way. Come live in any of our shoes here for one day, just one day, and then we will talk ok? Until then, at least some of you might just keep your nasty comments about our lifestyles to yourselves unless asked please by us to comment on our lifestyle. The OP ASKED for comments about something so we all commented. That was legit as she had requestion opininos. But the unasked for opinions about what you think you understand about customs and life in a majority of the population in EY show just how much you don't understand and what's much worse, because ignorance can be fixed, the incredible amount of what appears like ANGER or RESENTMENT or MOCKERY of our customs and our way of life.

Could it be that some people are feeling guilty for knowing how much a mitzva living here is and while they keep saying how frum they are, they aren't doing it while we are?

Tablepoetry

Wed, Dec 01 2010, 8:50 am

HindaRochel wrote:

So the bottom line for me is that in many places where I receive an invitation to go to a wedding here in Israel I don't go, because right now we don't have the money to spend on a gift, certainly not enough money to pay for the cost of the meal.

I really don't understand how it helps the couple to give a check equaling the cost of the food because that basically means the parents come out even in terms of the meal, not the smorg, cakes for the dancer, music, wine and drinks, the hall, flowers etc.

But now that I know basically what weddings I should say no thank you to, at least until we have money, I won't be a bore.

Till then I will keep going to the weddings I go to where people are welcomed because, well we are welcomed.

Really, when we have enough money I'd be more than happy to give a gift or check equal to whatever we can afford.

In your place, I would go if I were close to either bride or groom. People understand if others are having financial difficulties. No one expects you to break the bank for a wedding check.

freidasima

Wed, Dec 01 2010, 10:41 am

HR Tablepoetry is right, if you are close to either member of the couple, as a personal friend, they won't care if you give a gift or even just give two pretty mugs as a token, it's enough. Besides in your circles, particularly if they are anglo then the "cover your plate" rule isn't a rule at all so stop worrying.

As for your question regarding the price of "covering your plate" very often the cost of the "plate" covers everything. The hall often provides the flowers and the huppa, the smorgasboard is part of the meal and included in the cost of the plate, the only thing it doesn't cover is the photographer or the band. If you have an expensive band and a really good photographer it costs about $2000 each. If you invite 500 people to a chasuneh, that comes out another $8 or something like 25 shekel a person. But there are lots of people who do more than "cover their plate" and that covers the band and everything else. If a couple is lucky it's usually some of their closest relatives or good friends of their parents who give a much bigger check and they often come out of a 500 person having covered everything if they are lucky. The problems begin when people give presents often things they don't want and don't need. Then they have to count on returning them, giving them to a consignment store etc. Or if they parents have paid for the whole chasuneh then the couple takes all the money which is very common and the parents don't give them any or much help and they are ahead.

Depressed, as for your question, the first scenario isn't realistic because except if you are a really rich charedi, and yes they exist, then you have only a few places with the correct hechsher in Bnai Brak for example where you can even have the chasuneh and they are all really dumpy compared to the places you mention. So the first scenario isn't real.

The second scenario - my charming town is called the center of Yerushalayim. If everyone is Israeli at the second wedding and he is not recognized as what he is, a backpacking american who doesn't know the drill, yes, people will be a bit peeved that he brought nothing. If he brings mugs or something that's a token, it's at least a nice gesture, and will be appreciated. Know something else, that a lot of americans and american kids come here to "sponge off" Israelis. They figure they will "chill" and get invited to lots of places to sleep and to eat and basically they are freeloading and not necessarily on their close friends and relatives but on whomever they can get to invite them. So lots of Israelis, who are living on a lot less than the families of these kids who are not poor by far but just out for the "experience" find it a bit strange that these kids continue to freeload at a wedding instead of at least giving a token gift. That's chazerish in their opinion, as giving a gift, even a mug, is at least an expression of the fact that one doesn't freeload at a wedding, it's not an invitation for a free meal but rather a communal experience here (we've been through that) where one gives something and not just takes. A chasuneh is NOT a restaurant where you have been invited by others, just in order to enjoy yourself and dance a bit, at least in most Israeli circles. You get, but you also give. At least a gesture.

Fox

Wed, Dec 01 2010, 12:11 pm

freidasima wrote:

This is the double-standard that drew me back to this thread. You talked about how crass you find our system back on page 2 and made a very sarcastic reference to inviting people for sponge cake, but now you're offended! Trying to be dan l'chav zchus, we suggested that perhaps what you really meant is that, while the system in your community has its problems, it also offers many advantages.

However, you rejected that interpretation, claiming the system was better on its own merits and that there were no exceptions, apparently standing by your statement that you find other systems "crass."

So you're right. You didn't attack me personally. You attacked my entire culture and community, reiterating your stance several times. So I apologize if I was personally nasty. I guess I and everyone around me is just too crass to know any better.

freidasima

Wed, Dec 01 2010, 12:17 pm

There you go again Fox. Why?
Who appointed you the personal representative of your culture and community?
Your last crack was truly uncalled for.
I can talk about a phenomenon but I never talked about a person.
It's like the difference between telling a kid "you are bad" or "what you did it bad" and in this case it's more like "the thing you DESCRIBE" is bad unless a person describes something that another listening thinks is not good and that describer adds that he/she was part of the "bad" thing that was being done.
I didn't attack you and never said "you are crass". If you want to take what I wrote about dancing and sponge cake personally that raises another question....why are you taking this so personally when you think that when you take apart the Israeli system I SHOULDNT take it personally as you aren't talking about me (but you were, personally and directly, you attacked FREIDASIMA and not a "society") but a system?

Last edited by freidasima on Wed, Dec 01 2010, 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Wed, Dec 01 2010, 1:02 pm

freidasima wrote:

I'm beginning to wonder if we're participating in the same thread.

I re-read every single one of my posts in this thread, and I still can't find where I "took apart" the Israeli system. If you are offended by the fact that I tried to relate the difference in systems to larger societal characteristics, then I guess I'm guilty -- but I can't find a single instance where I said anything specifically pejorative about the Israeli system. And I certainly didn't use words like "crass" to describe it. In fact, I praised the system in several posts!

I have a feeling that this topic is a proxy for other issues that touch our hot buttons. But Sequoia is right; at this rate we'll soon be given our own forum in which to duke it out, taking valuable time away from arguing over where women should sit on the bus as well as chastising young women who think everyone cares when/where they go to the mikvah and lambasting people who spend too much on strollers.

So I will promise to never, ever attend a DL chassunah without bringing a gift or check (in the extremely unlikely event that I am invited to such a shindig), and you can rest assured that you are welcome to come to a yeshivishe chassunah sans checkbook!

Miriam1

Sat, Dec 11 2010, 10:35 pm

If people dont give a gift, it's because they just can't afford it. Even when you think someone is rich, maybe they have a lot of bills to pay and just cant afford it. Some people are invited and go to so many parties that they just can't give big gifts. It really adds up. And it's really not nice to say that if they can't afford to give a gift, then they shouldnt eat and just come to dance. That's just wrong. Invite people that you love and you want them to be with you at the simcha. Just because you're getting married, it doesnt mean that they have to pay for their dinner at your party. Maybe they forgot the gift and will mail it later (which they may forget to do too.) There were so many people at my wedding who didn't give a gift. So many said they were coming and didnt show up at all. With all that being said, some people just don't know or care about proper etiquette. Regardless, expect nothing and you'll be happy with whatever you do or dont get it. Keep a list of who gave what and when you go to their simchas, give the same thing.

Marion

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 1:30 am

We're going to a wedding tonight. I'm not writing a cheque. (I don't write cheques anyway; I find them impersonal.) I'm also not bringing a gift.

I am paying a babysitter 200+ NIS to watch my children (who WERE invited to the wedding, but for several reasons including distance, the hour, and the fact that it's a work/gan night are not attending). I am driving about 2 hours each way in potentially very nasty weather, and in the dark. I made part of the offruf kiddush. I am supplying dessert and sweet table for 7 brachot Tuesday night (because I refuse to pay 50NIS/person for bad food to attend, so I'm saving the organizers the cost of ordering dessert as well).

The chattan is 47; the kallah is 42. This is a first marriage for both. He owns an apartment; it's fully furnished and outfitted. I told him (he's a ben bayit) that if there's anything they find they need after everything's been opened and cashed we would be happy to provide it. But I'm not going to arbitrarily choose something becase I don't know HER at all yet, and he probably has it or doesn't need it.

He's not offended. If her family chooses to be, well, I'll probably never see them again after tonight anyway. They can think of us what they choose.

tsiggelle

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 10:54 am

Marion wrote:

why should they be offended ? youre helping in other ways.

if they dont know it, you can tell them?