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Chuppah Question

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supermommy07

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 9:44 am

I was recently at the chasunah and I noticed that the Chassan's tie was knoted as well as his kittel belt while under the chuppah. I have NEVER EVER seen this!! Is there a custom that you DO NOT have to untie all your knots under the chuppah? Does anyone here not untie all knots for the chuppah? please help me out here Because I keep thinking about this.

bbmom

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 10:52 am

First of all minhag is not halacha - the very definition of minhag means that some people do things differently.

At my brother's wedding there was a grand mix of customs - him from a Lubavitch family marrying a girl from a yeshivishe family.

The [well known] rav who was maseder kidushin did not want the knots untied (which is our minhag), he was commanding this as he was putting ashes on my brother's head (which is NOT our minhag). He said that a chosson is like a king and it's not fitting for a king to be "half undressed".

(My brother's knots were untied, but from then I knew that not only is not the minhag of some people, some are very against it.)

supermommy07

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 12:22 pm

OBVIOUSLY I KNOW MINHAG IS NOT HALACHA. WHAT I WAS ASKING WHICH YOU DID ANSWER IS IF SOME PEOPLE HAVE THE MINHAG TO KEEP KNOTS TIED.. I THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE A MINHAG YISROEL IN WHICH CASE EVERYONE WOULD UNTIE KNOTS.... I THOUGHT THIS BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN TO MANY WEDDING OF ALL DIFFERENT BACKROUNDS AND HAVE NEVER NOTICED A CHASSON WITH A KNOTED TIE.

yummymummy

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 12:25 pm

I've actually never heard of undoing the chosson's tie, nor have I ever seen this, are you sure this is common?

I went to onlysimchas and in all the under the chuppah pictures I saw the chosson's tie looked perfectly normal. Am I missing something here?

Shkoyach

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 12:33 pm

yummymummy wrote:

I agree, Ive been to many chasunas Israel and America and I have never seen a tie untied.. At our wedding for sure we never heard of such an idea.

snow_white

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 4:59 pm

Rabbi Yisroel Reisman addressed this custom in one of his Navi shiurim a few years ago -- about the sources for various customs. Some of the customs originated with a particular sect and sort of "took off" and he tried to explain why he thought that was the case. I don't remember all the details, but he definitely talked about the "minhag" for the chassan to untie his shoelaces before walking down the aisle. (I put minhag in quotes because he was addressing whether or not this was actually a verifiable minhag or not -- he was looking at sources for these things.) He said that he believes the reason it became so widespread is that the photographers run the weddings! One photographer sees it done at one chuppah and instructs the next 50 chassanim to untie their shoes as they prepare to walk down. Who's gonna dare question the photographer? And thus, he concluded, the minhag took off and became commonplace. It got a few chuckles, but the point was that this is not necessarily a hard and fast customs for many communities (despite the fact that it may SEEM quite prevalent).

Barbara

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 5:16 pm

I've never seen or heard of this custom.

Of course, our rabbi did not allow the photographer anywhere near the chuppa (he did allow the photographer to take photos from the back of the room, and did pose for photos afterwards). Per the rabbi, its a religious ceremony, not a photo opportunity.

bbmom

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 5:25 pm

snow_white wrote:

This boils my blood. "I don't know a source so therefore it can't be legitimate".

The minhag has been known for MANY years. LONG before photogrophers were even at weddings, let alone running them.

MAYBE Rabbis who "can't find a source" should ask the Rabbis who can what their source is! I know, I know, it's way easier to dismiss a minhag by saying "the photographer made it up" then to actually find out if the people who hold by it have a reason to do so.

Last edited by bbmom on Tue, Nov 02 2010, 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

bbmom

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 5:26 pm

supermommy07 wrote:

A lesson in internet manners:

Caps lock is equivalent to yelling. When people yell I close my ears. When I yell feel free to do the same.

lilacdreams

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 5:49 pm

never been to a wedding where the chossen wasnt wearing a knotted tie. My husband's was knotted so it must be a good omen, coz we're still married almost 16 years later Smile

I am pretty sure his kittel was knotted also. Maybe the more knotted ties you have the more likely you are to stay together? worked for us, lol!

louche

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 5:53 pm

people who don't untie knots don't "have the minhag to keep knots tied." Tied clothing is the default. You either have the minhag to untie, or you don't have that minhag, not that you have the minhag to keep knots tied.

No one in my family has ever untied anything under the chuppah. Not a necktie, not a shoelace, not a decorative bow. Nor has any of our mesadrei kiddushin suggested it.

simhat_nisuyyin

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 5:57 pm

My husband's kaftan and shoelaces were tied, if I recall... and he wasn't wearing a tie!

Last edited by simhat_nisuyyin on Tue, Nov 02 2010, 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

busydev

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 6:01 pm

the source of this is to show we are in aveilos over the Chorban. an avel doesnt wear knots and neither should a chosson. why only the chosson and not the kalla? good question.

my husbands shoes were not untied- cause he had slip ones but his last loop of the tie was undone- not a complete knot

sky

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 6:02 pm

I don't know what dh did with his tie or shoe laces. But, he didn't wear a kittel, so no belt to knot there.

louche

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 6:35 pm

busydev wrote:

the source of this is to show we are in aveilos over the Chorban. an avel doesnt wear knots and neither should a chosson. why only the chosson and not the kalla? good question.

That's not what it says in Chabad.org. There it says that b/c the ch and k are tying the ultimate knot, nothing else should be binding them. Frankly, I think that explanation is tripe. I suspect it has something to do with evil spirits getting caught or s/t like that, which is why we Litvaks, being rationalists from the word Go, don't have this minhag. I think the explanation in Chabad.org is tripe because the expression "tying the knot" is not a Jewish one. Opinions vary as to the origin of the expression "tying the knot" to mean marriage, but the explanation that in numerous cultures the couple's hands are tied together to symbolize their joining makes as much sense as any and more than some. However, inasmuch as Jews do not tie hands together, the concept of "tying the knot" cannot possibly be a factor in the origin of this minhag.

From what I've read, untying knots seems to be strictly a Chabad minhag, although, like many minhagei Chabad, may have been picked up by those who adopt minhagim, regardless of origin, simply because the minhagim appeal to them.

enneamom

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 6:39 pm

Barbara wrote:

Of course, our rabbi did not allow the photographer anywhere near the chuppa (he did allow the photographer to take photos from the back of the room, and did pose for photos afterwards). Per the rabbi, its a religious ceremony, not a photo opportunity.

THAT is a minhag I'd like to see more of. It's true that weddings are run--and overrun--by photographers these days.

bbmom

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 8:36 pm

louche wrote:

busydev wrote:

the source of this is to show we are in aveilos over the Chorban. an avel doesnt wear knots and neither should a chosson. why only the chosson and not the kalla? good question.

I am Chabad and while I respect Chabad.org for what it does, I would never use it a source to prove a minhag or halacha. That's like using Imamother as a source. A stranger behind a computer screen wrote it, not my rav or anyone I look up to for guidance in these matters.

chanahlady

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 8:39 pm

DH untied his shoe (his other shoe was a big velcro boot because he had just broken his toe) and just did a loose single tie in his kittel belt. No tie.

bbmom

Tue, Nov 02 2010, 8:50 pm

I just checked two Chabad sources for the minhag they both say the following

Quote:

Before the chuppah, any knots in his clothes (such as in a tie or shoelaces) should be untied.

Both sources were written or edited by the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself (One is a letter, the other is Sefer Haminhagim of Chabad-Lubavitch) and neither state a reason for the minhag. This obviously does not mean that there is no reason; I would venture a guess that the reasoning is more kabbalistic than anything else.

Sefer Haminhagim was published in 1966. The minhagim written there about weddings are minhagim that the Lubavitcher Rebbe learned from the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe (R' Yosef Yitzchak) who passed away in 1950. Most of these were learned at or in connection with the Rebbe's own wedding which took place in 1928.

I wonder if the photographer was running the wedding and making up minhagim then also.

snow_white

Wed, Nov 03 2010, 12:17 pm

bbmom wrote:

snow_white wrote:

First of all, if you want to pm me I can send you the shiur -- it was fascinating. Take it up with Rabbi Reisman if you want, don't take it out on me. I'm simply regurgitating what I heard. Secondly, re-read what he said. It IS a custom, just not as COMMON as some might believe. He does find a source for most of the things he mentions in the shiur -- and I think the source for this may have been chassidish (which supports the chabad commenter above). What he was explaining is why so many non-chassidish chassanim seem to have adopted this minhag. And he said it's likely not due to any intellectual debate and shakla v'tarya but due to a bossy photographer. Also, I don't know who you're quoting with "I don't know a source . . .", but it's certainly not R. Reisman. He dedicated an entire shiur to finding sources to "odd" or "obscure" minhagim, so he obviously agrees that many of these minhagim have a source and are legitimate. [I don't recall if he concluded that any of the minhagim were minhagei shtus . . . but if after extensive research it turns out that a custom does not have a source -- I.e., a Jewish source (sometimes things filter in from the outside) -- then I'd have no qualms concluding that.]

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