Are you able to intellectually explain why Torah is true?

dGirl

Fri, Nov 12 2010, 3:06 pm

This is a spinoff from the why are you frum thread. Are you able to intellectually say that you could prove Judaism to be ture, if put to the test? I'm not asking about others who may question you, but can you answer it for yourself? What does it mean to you when you say "Torah tziva lanu Moshe, morasha kehilas Yaakov".

Have you ever been formally taught these fundamentals of emuna? Has anyone on here learnt the Kuzari, or read "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"? Have you ever been to the Discovery Seminars? There are so many sources, seforim, and CDs out there, but I am constantly seeing questions on emuna that are posed on imamother. I'm wondering how many of you, either those who went to frum schools, or are BT, can say that you REALLY know it's true.

Please share your insights! No silent stalkers on here. I'd really like to know what you all have to say on the subject.

Thank you!

Depressed

Fri, Nov 12 2010, 3:13 pm

I am very curious to see who participates in this thread.. In my experiences, most FFB girls under 40 are so busy talking about shidduchim, challa recipes, the latest tznius chumra being rammed down their throat, that there are no braincells left for this type of conversation, or they are simply not interested...

A few women in the high 20s, that I work with, all graduates of Hadar and BJJ, told me ," they want to remain innocent and have emina pashita " ..

marina

Fri, Nov 12 2010, 3:18 pm

This thread and the other one too are missing many options.

I have received this education and can explain the kuzari. I can also, as many of us, explain the serious weaknesses in the kuzari's argument as well as with the discovery seminars.

dGirl

Fri, Nov 12 2010, 3:30 pm

Marina, the truth is that I had a third option stating 'I've received this education, but still have questions'. For some reason it didn't go through into the poll.

If anyone fits into this option, I'd really like to hear about it. I'll make it clear that this is not about bashing the programs currently in existance. If you fall into this category, please do not specify what is missing in those prgrams, but rather what issues related to hashkafa you still question.

Thank you.

mama-star

Fri, Nov 12 2010, 4:01 pm

you can't prove torah the way you prove a science theorem. you can't prove G-d exists either, but just because there is no fundamental proof, doesn't mean something is or isn't true. it really is about emuna. and also, I believe that a jew is above reality as we know it and therefore, it follows, that torah is as well. just my .02

Shuly

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 12:31 pm

I learned Kuzari in high school and had many other classes on this topic, including speakers from Discovery. In seminary we had a "da mah l'hashiv" class. Rabbi Leib (Lawrence) Keleman also taught us in seminary. His classes were based on his books, Permission to Believe and Permission to Receive and were excellent. So yes, I can intellectually prove that the Torah is Divine and Judaism is true. However, I do know people who learned many of the same proofs that I did and do not want the responsibility of believing it or are just not intellectually capable of understanding it. Some of these people are not religious anymore and some are religious based on emunah. One person said, I don't know all the proofs, but I trust that the Torah is true because there are people out there who are much wiser than me who believe it. I think that outlook is fine too.

shalhevet

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 12:43 pm

Depressed wrote:

I am mocha on behalf of my dds and many of their friends (teenage FFBs). I wonder in what sort of society you live that you can write something like this - it makes me very sad. In EY this is not true at all - at least not among the Litvish people I know. Of course there are "empty" people in any society, but I know many deep FFB women in their 20s and 30s who are interested in hashkafa, in working on middos, in thinking about what Hashem wants from them, in discussing emuna etc.

I went to a Discovery-type seminar in England as a teenager and that's what made me believe in Torah absolutely and want to live a chareidi Torah life (I was MO FFB). I was most convinced by the historical argument that you cannot make up a historical event like mattan Torah.

Ruchel

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 12:55 pm

I had a home based education, the people around were OOT traditional or MO and not where I looked for "inspiration".

I didn't think of religion all the time but I didn't have big doubts because if I started by the fact "G-d doesn't exist" things didn't make sense.

Nowadays BH there are great speakers, shiurim, books... of all kinds and for all tastes, hashkafos and personalities.

Are all FFB shallow? G-d forbid! But yes, someone who makes the step to be a FTB, even more a BT, even more a convert, will have LOTS of fire or he wouldn't change his life to begin with!

I do hear regularly "remain innocent, just have emuna, don't search". Why not, if it works! For some it can indeed plant doubts to hear criticism, others will not care, others will be reinforced.

Once upon a time I thought all the "shtarkers" didn't doubt and were very "motivated" and when I finally moved in such a kehila I saw it was not so clear at all and "it's all from Hashem" is not for all topics.... And some very simple, very uneducated, not necessarily shomer mitsvos at all, people, have such a crazy perfect emuna.

Sherri

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 1:27 pm

Depressed wrote:

Then I think you have to get out a little more and get more experience.

hannah95

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 2:45 pm

There are some things that I can explain, thanks to various shiurim I attended.
But there is a whole lot I can't explain. And you know what ? I don't really care. And I'm not a sheltered or stupid person. I have 2 degrees, my mind works fine. There are some things I'm ok with not understanding with my brain.

the world's best mom

Sun, Nov 14 2010, 1:41 pm

The first proof I heard was in Shiur in camp. Our shiur counselor said we would make up a story about a skunk running through the room during our Shiur class and tell everyone about it. There was no way we could make people believe it, since we were a whole group of people who all knew it was made up- and we were only about 30 people. How could millions of people claim to witness a Matan Torah and get everyone to believe them?

Then, I heard Uri Zohar speak and he gave another proof. He said that Moshe presented us with a Torah stating that there are 4 animals in the world that do not chew their cuds or have split hooves. If Moshe had spent his whole life in Mitrayin, Midyan and the Midbar, how would he know what animals exist all over the world? There were no resources in those days like we have now. He couldn't have googled it.

freidasima

Sun, Nov 14 2010, 1:49 pm

Proof? Who can give proof. Kierkegard speaks of the great leap to faith and he knew what he was talking about. Anything you can prove, by definition, is the opposite of "faith", which implies an inability to prove scientifically to the nth degree.

So...you have tartei disatrei. It is a built in impossibilty to prove that the torah is true. Therefore you can explain many things scientifically, but how can you explain prohibitions scientifically? Like what's exactly wrong with wearing shatnez? Eating pork gives you trichanosis, right, but eating milk and meat? my grandmother wouldn't let us eat lamb chops and have a glass of soda, she said that the fat would congeal in your stomach and so it was worse than treif. I heard that so many times that it was only when I was around bas mitzva did I realize that a glass of coke with lamb chops WASN'T TREIF!!!

So go explain, and go prove and then go read kierkegard, y'all...