religion only takes one so far

amother

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 12:35 am

Do you think this is true?

I was talking to someone the other day about this? We were saying that Hashem gives each one of us a tafkid in life and we have to make of it what we can and what we want.
But if that tafkid gets hard (an ill child, a mentally ill spouse, an abusive spouse, living with almost no money, take your pick of tzaarot) and you dont know what to do, religion will help you through.
Do you think that this is true? I said to the other person that I only think religion will take you so far and then after that you are so to speak on your own.

I have my own pekelach of something not so grand in my life and I dont feel that religion has helped me at all. If anything I feel sometimes that Hashem is laughing in my face saying "well, I just wanted to try this tafkid out on you. I dont really know if this is your true tafkid though, so wait a while to find out". In other words, I dont believe or feel like Hashem is really with me anymore with me and my tzaar. I feel like I have to pick up everything on my own.

So, do you really feel like religion can go the distance no matter what the pekelach is?

tsiggelle

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 5:56 am

amother wrote:

someone told me what they said the other week on the radio. that in the past year, the irreligous took 5 times as much medication for mental health.

I think this survey took place in israel.

I think this says something. btw, I am not bashing anyone, but it seems that this is what you wanted to hear

amother

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 6:10 am

shalhevet wrote:

What is religion? No, I don't think eating kosher gives you better mental health. But I do think someone with a high level of emuna v'bitachon (faith and trust) looks at life differently.

If you believe everything that happens to you has a purpose - nothing is by chance - then, yes, I think that makes anything 'bad' that happens from the trivial to the terrible, less stressful.

And the higher someone's level of bitachon, the easier difficult things that happen to them will be.

OP here. Well, then I guess I do not have a lot of bitachon or emunah.
I was given my little pekelach in life and I really do not understand why Hashem made it this way. It has done nothing but brought saddness and anger into my life where there was none of that before.
How can I possibly have emunah and bitachon in Hashem that this is the absolute best thing and my tafkid in life? Is life supposed to be one long sad story? I really hope not.

cassandra

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 6:14 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I think you actually have a lot of bitachon-- you believe very strongly that all of the bad in your life is from G-d and that G-d is "playing with you". You just don't take it a step further to believe that ultimately G-d is good and whatever you are going through is for some purpose, even if you can't see what it is. When you believe this, life feels challenging but not a long, sad story. There is good in life even in the most trying circumstances. It's all about what you choose to see.

EvenI

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 6:27 am

You sound like you know that nothing besides Torah can help, but you're questioning whether you could really get through your life and survive and even thrive. The answer is that yes, it is possible, and it's worth putting the work in for. It's a dynamic process in which you work to acquire tools that help you actually recognize the gifts that Hashem gives us, and unwrap the deceptively wrapped packages. The world is created in such a way that outlook makes all the difference to outcome. Do you study a hashkafa or mussar sefer that provides you with tools to work with? I recommend working carefully through the Michtav M'Eliyahu. It's very powerful.
I am saying all this even though I am embarrassed to admit that I have often complained to Hashem about the apparently impossible situations that I find myself in, (and probably put myself in). We are absurd in our humanity, but Hashem is good and right and we can't imagine what we have to gain and conversely what we could be throwing away.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 6:29 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I don't think most people can necessarily see the good in the bad things happening to them, while it is going on. We just have to take it with emuna that there is a reason why Hashem made this happen. Sometimes, afterwards, we can understand why it was for our own good. Sometimes we can't in this world.

I think it is particularly difficult today - once people (including non-Jews) just accepted that life would be hard, have tragedies etc, because that was the reality and also people had very little choice about the course their lives would take. Today the Western world projects an image that life is just one long vacation (or at least, should be). People can avoid difficulties (eg not get married to avoid responsibility, not have children - ditto, get great medical care and nothing will ever happen to them, throw off religious restrictions, make it financially and live a life of wealth even if they are from a poor family etc). So as soon as something difficult happens we don't understand. Actually, if you look around at the people you know you will see everyone has problems in one way or another (of course some are minor and some are major).

I agree with cassandra that the way you write shows you do have a high level of emuna.

amother

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 6:37 am

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

OP here. But I am not talking about things like financial difficulties ot not having children or having an easy ride in life. I know that we have to work at our lives. I am married to a man with a mental illness. It only came out after we were married a few years and it is so difficult sometimes to understand why this happened. Meaning why did Hashem give me this tafkid that I have a marriage that sometimes is a sham, sometimes is very miserable and angry.
I am not talking about one long easy ride, I know that, but the opposite of that does not mean that we have to live a miserable life either.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 7:25 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I don't know if your difficulty is easier or harder than ch"v not having children or losing a child or living in great poverty or physical illness - who knows and who can judge? It sounds like you think your nisayon (test) is worse than anyone else's - maybe it is and maybe it isn't. Bitachon is believing this happened for a reason - whether or not we can understand it. The reason can be that you changed/ built your character by being in this terrible situation.

And of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't do the best you can to find support for the situation and do your best for yourself and any children you have.

cassandra

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 7:45 am

amother wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Are you not choosing to be married?0

I am the OP. I am not understanding your question. Of course I am choosing it, but divorce is always on my mind. That also is not a good way to live.

I didn't mean to minimize what you are going through. My point is that no one should ever feel completely impotent and "played" by G-d because there is always some choice. Always. G-d dealt you the hand of having a spouse with a mental illness that you were not aware of. Now it's your move. You are not powerless-- you can choose to stay or you can choose to go and YOU get to decide. You sound like you are stuck and paralyzed, which is the opposite of how one has to face any challenge. Maybe until now your goal has been to survive, and surviving is not nothing either. But there comes a point where you have to choose. Really choose. And at that point you won't feel played anymore.

amother

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 8:05 am

[quote="amother"][quote="shalhevet"]

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I agree with cassandra that the way you write shows you do have a high level of emuna.

OP, after close to a decade of marriage, my DH found himself struggling with a wife who has mental illness (depression and OCD). This isn't what he signed up for. He's had the nisayon of hearing me obsess over certain feelings and thoughts on a daily basis, and has seen me sink into a dark pit several times. He's had to literally drag me off the couch or out of bed in order to take a walk. He's had to help me make Shabbos meals, step in with the kids on more than a few occasions, and worry about the best thing to do for me. B"H I'm feeling great now, and to be honest, we've had a mostly rocky marriage until recently. We've done therapy together too.

But this whole nisayon - which is his as much as mine - has actually brought us closer together. I wasn't sure I'd ever truly love him or even like him, as many of my problems were caused by him. (Meaning, my depression and OCD are not his fault, but are exacerbated by stress and change - much of which was caused by him. He'd agree - now.)

I can now see the good in why we've had to deal with this nisayon. I hope you will too with the right guidance. Hatzlacha and hugs!

Depressed

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 8:57 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

The Chofetz Chaim tells a story, that once a Yeed came to a shul on Shabbos and saw everone on the right side of the shul getting aliyos. He screamed at the gabbai, what is going on here, only ppl on the rt side are getting aliyas. The gabbai said, you are obviuosly a guest here. If you were here last week, you would of saw that everone on the left side were getting aliyos, and next week, they will also be getting aliyos. We are only here about 70 years, you dont what happened for the thousands of years before you came in previous gilgulim, or what will be in the years until mashiach comes. We see only one piece of a 1000 piece jugsaw puzzle and then are upset when we dont see the entire picture...

OP... if you are still very young, perhaps you should talk to a Rov or a very big adom godol about your marriage. You really deserve to be happy.. Perhaps there is someone else out there that can make you very happy...If you are so miserable, I dont think you have to stay in such a marriage your whole life...

sneakermom

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 9:36 am

I agree with Cassandra. It does sound like you have a lot of bitachon. And it does sound like you have a relationship with Hashem. But now that you are suffering so much you feel betrayed by him. You feel that he let go of his end of the bargain.

As people we have an imagined sense of how our life should play out. What is fair for us to go through and what is inconceivable. So when the worst takes place.....and hits us squarely in the face....we fall back....reeling from the blow. And as rational human beings we just don't see the logic in that. It seems so destructive. Wouldn't it make more sense for things to be normal, that we could feel connected to Hashem....and do normal mitzvos like everyone else?

And because we don't understand it....and we are in great pain, we feel lost and disconnected from Hashem. It is very hard to be connected to Hashem when you feel stuck, out of it, and disillusioned. And sometimes a person's sadness, silence, and anger is also a prayer, a communication to G-d as to where you are holding, and what your need is.

Hashem changed the rules to the game for you for you. And you are grappling with that. It takes time. But it can be done. Your job is to connect to Hashem, despite your pain and despite your deep disappointment in life. If anything you need to communicate to Hashem how you feel about what he has done to you. How you wish to feel that he cares more about you. How you need him badly but don't know how he fits into the "new" picture of your life.

And then, the next point is that you really need support. Hashem created people on this earth who can help you and give you chizuk. Are you in therapy, or a support group of some sort? It is so important to have support because no one should have to carry heavy burdens on their own. A situation like yours could break a person, but it could also be an opportunity to surpass what you thought was your own limitations. So reach out as much as possible, take advantage of every resource.

And one more thing. Give yourself time. True you feel this way now. But it doesn't mean that you always will. Things can get better, even if we don't see that they can at the time. Life goes by. Right now you are grappling and in pain....but with time you can overcome that and feel a sense of peace and strength. It takes time to get past the blow. You are only human.

Wishing you a lot of Hatzlacha. May you feel Hashem's presence comforting you and giving you strength and clarity to deal with your life situation.

PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 10:18 am

amother wrote:

Forgive me for posting without reading the whole page; I'll try to but I'm not focusing well this morning, didn't sleep great.
Rabbi Reisman this past week spoke about just this! He used the pasuk towards the end of Yirmiyahu as a springboard - Vesamti kisi le'eelem - I will put My throne in hiddeness, and about the shechina in galus.
Here's the point that I hope I will always remember. There is a difference between tzaros, and nisyonos, nisyonos of the defining kind, like Avraham's ten. It's off, Yaakov had such tzaros too - he went to Mitzrayim during famine, and talk about tzaar gidul banim - and yet they're not considered nisyonos. The difference is, that he felt that Hashem was with him all along. If we look at Avraham during the akeidah the pasuk says, Vayaar haMmkom merachok, he saw the place from afar. It can also be read, he saw haMakom, Hashem, as distant. And that's why the akeidah was a nisayon. He didn't feel Hashem's presence yet he went ahead and did what Hashem wanted.

I don't know if this at all eases your pain, but know that you're not on uncharted territory.
I'm not the hugz type, but this calls for it ;-) Hug

PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 10:23 am

cassandra wrote:

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

!!!

OP, I'm sorry I didn't slog through because now I see what the catalyst to these feelings is. But again, you're not on uncharted territory. I hope you're finding good support to help you make an informed decision. Because even staying married, which seems like a default position IS a decision, and one that people who really know what you're going through can help you feel positive about. I really do believe that you can feel positive, even if the bulk of these positive feelings are from other aspects of your life than your marriage.

amother

Mon, Nov 15 2010, 12:49 pm

Depressed wrote:

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

OP here. I have not and will not talk to a rav about this but I have talked to a therapist and I am BH in a support group for spouses of mentally ill people which is a big help.

on the flip side, I agree with you. I dont have to stay in a miserable situation for the rest of my life. I just never know when enough is enough. and that is my problem. we go through times when I forget that I am living a not so great life and then there are other times that I am in sheer hell on earth.