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Practical application



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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 26 2005, 7:57 pm
Our daughter is ia"h turning 3yrs and I know basically the laws of yichud (must do a review though ).

What I want to know when does not touching start applying. Coz there are lots of not yet frum men who would shake her hand etc to wish good shabbos etc.
So when is it not ok, and would like to know all shitas lubavitch and not lubavitch. And how do I deal w/h issues that might come up?
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ForeverYoung

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Post Sat, Feb 26 2005, 9:45 pm
I think man cannot touch a girl who is 3 & up.
A girl cannot touch a boy who is 9 & up.

This is confusing (at least to me).

I once observed how a niece was siting on her favorite uncle's lap, who did not touch her (ie, he did not initiate any contact, it was all her action) and she had the best time.
/this is when I found out about this whole issue/

With BT's & others unfamiliars the best way is for the girls to keep low profile & keep their hands buisy. Smart sitting arrangements help Wink And the girls don't have to greet the guest - they can come in (reasonably) later and just not give guest the chance to shake the hands.

Quote:
And how do I deal w/h issues that might come up?

I wouldn't make a deal out of it, just end it as soon as politely possible.

the truth is, I'd like to hear whay others say about it too, being that my daughter is around the same age[/b]
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Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 27 2005, 9:58 am
I dunno, I deffinately used to be picked up by the students who came to our house when I was 4 or 5 and I deffinately sat on one guy's lap when I was 9.
Have you tried speaking to your child about it and see from there what she does. 3 does sound a bit young for the yichud thing, does anyone know why it's that age for a girl, but like 6 years later for a boy? It's not like we are bas-motzvah 6 years before a boy either.
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 27 2005, 12:00 pm
Conc age rivka think it's got to do w/h besula status as b/4 3 is not applicable. Whereas at this age and on is where her besula status plays a role.
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ForeverYoung

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Post Sun, Feb 27 2005, 6:13 pm
besula status at 3???? shock
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Yael




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 02 2005, 1:06 pm
another thing what about family members? are you really careful that an uncle doesnt hold the neice's hand when crossing streets? as in make special arrangements so it never has to happen? or stam even to play, the uncle can throw every kid in the air except the 3 yr old neice.
do you really do this?
also would you teach the girl she cannot touch any man even her uncles and cousins over 9?
its not applicable to me but I always wonder when I get together with family what is the appropriate and realistic thing to do.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 02 2005, 1:34 pm
A question was asked of Rabbi Osdoba as follows:

A boy who was already nine years old, played with his (younger) girl cousins, in the course of which, there was physical contact. The question was, are the parents supposed to teach their son the halachos of hands-off. R' Osdoba said: don't make an issue of it.

everybody ask their own questions to their rav

Here's how it was explained (not by Rabbi O.):

There are 2 halachos which are confused due to their apparent similiar nature, which are really very different.

1) There is the law of Yichud (discussed at the end of Kidushin and Even Haezer simon 22) which dictates that a man and woman can't be in an enclosed area by themselves, and this starts when the female is 3 and boy is 9. To this Halacha there are no exceptions [which makes for babysitter shailos!]. Now, once the 2 are in public view this Halacha is not applicable, since by definition there is no Yichud.

2)The laws of coming in contact with the other gender. To this Halacha we find many exceptions. For example the Gemara describes that one of the Amoraim danced with the Kallah on his shoulders, and the Rishonim explain, that since he was so holy he was able to avoid hirhur (sinful thoughts), since she was in his eyes like "white geese".

Now of course this is only for very holy Tzadikim but neverthless, where else do we see a double standard in Halacha, one for a Tzadik and one for regular people?

Answer: This Halacha to begin with, does not claim don't touch a woman or look at her, but instead it is a Halacha of hirhur (sinful thoughts). The Halacha says that a person can't do anything which can cause him to be meharer (have sinful thoughts), so there are exceptions to those whom those acts won't cause any hirhur.

(Nobody should even remotely think about himself/herself that he/she comes anywhere near this level)

Now, likewise with children, its a fact of life that temimisdike (innocent) children, who are not aware at all about feelings between genders, are in some ways not prone to any hirhur, like those tzadikkim (the big difference: the children are in the pre-awareness stage, and tzadikkim are post-awareness), so the Halacha of contact doesn't apply even if they are older than 9 (provided they are in public view).

Furthermore: the less you make them aware, by not telling them to stop, the less hirhur he will have, the earlier you make him aware of this notion, this by itself will be the prime cause for hirhur.

***
Interestingly, in this case, the girl cousin matured in these matters sooner (which is why, I suppose, girls are obligated in mitzvos a year earlier than boys), and a few years later, she expressed some discomfort to her mother about spending time with her boy cousin. So their contact petered out naturally.
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 02 2005, 2:06 pm
Quote:
Now, likewise with children, its a fact of life that temimisdike (innocent) children, who are not aware at all about feelings between genders, are in some ways not prone to any hirhur, like those tzadikkim (the big difference: the children are in the pre-awareness stage, and tzadikkim are post-awareness), so the Halacha of contact doesn't apply even if they are older than 9 (provided they are in public view).


Very interesting thanks Very Happy

But whats the answer conc an (adult) uncle with a niece etc Confused
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