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Kelipa - Malchus - Yemos Ha'Moshiach
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ForeverYoung

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Post Tue, Mar 01 2005, 1:17 pm
a spin off:

mp wrote:

1. You write :
Quote:
For Kedusha to be accessible it has to be contracted to a practical level. (Tzimtzum). An example of this would be the creation of the world. When Hashem created the world, His Light (Or) was too strong to cause a practical world to be created, so Hashem contracted His light into various "tzimtzumim"


And why is that so ? Why couldn't Hashem just make a world that will tolerate it- G-d could have made the world any way possible- so that the world is able to access kedusha, even with the existence of evil. He made all these things and can make up any rules about them that He wants.

Quote:
Chesed, Gevura, Tiferes, Netzach , Hod Yesod and then......Malchus. The world came into being only after Hashem's Or was contracted into the level of Malchus.


This is vague and unclear to me. If malchus is really analogous to females and the world only came into being after the Or was contracted into malchus, then people should have been created first, especially Chava. Why was Chava created last if her entire being is symbolic of that which allows the world to come into being in the first place ?

Quote:
A man is compared to the first six sefiros (like the six workdays ) and a woman is compared to the level of the last (practical, caused the world to become a reality) sefira --Malchus(comparable to Shabbos).

This seems backwards- shabbos is the least practical, least "real" day of the week and the day when we are least connected with the physical world.
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ForeverYoung

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Post Tue, Mar 01 2005, 1:18 pm
Ozmom wrote:
Quote:
And why is that so ? Why couldn't Hashem just make a world that will tolerate it- G-d could have made the world any way possible- so that the world is able to access kedusha, even with the existence of evil. He made all these things and can make up any rules about them that He wants.

Your question is a good one and is asked and discussed in great length in Kabbalistic and Chassidic literature. As Hashem is Kol Yochol - 'Unlimited in power', He is able to do anything and does not have to create the world in any specific manner. He nevertheless chose to create the world specifically in this manner. If your really interested in knowing more about this I can obtain for you the sources for these explanations. This question is similar to the one in the mishnah in Pirkei Avos as to why Hashem created the world in 10 sayings when he could have done it with one. Pirkei Avos even provides an answer to that question.

Quote:
This is vague and unclear to me. If malchus is really analogous to females and the world only came into being after the Or was contracted into malchus, then people should have been created first, especially Chava. Why was Chava created last if her entire being is symbolic of that which allows the world to come into being in the first place ?


Hashem created 10 Sefirot, the last of which gives birth to a new level of creation so to speak. Malchus - the lowest level of a higher world gives birth to the next world so for example Malchus of Atzilus allows for the creation of the lower world of Briah and Malchus of Briah gives birth to the next world of Yetzirah. This is reflected in our world as well where a woman who represents Malchus is the one who bears children thus allowing the creation of a new world so to speak. As for how the very first level was created, this was basically the beginning of when Hashem allowed his infinite light to filter through the tzimtzumim - contractions, to allow malchus to come into being. The reason why it's the last sefirah is simpy because it is external to itself. That is to say something can be complete in of itself without any connection to another level. Once we deal with creating something outside of oneself where are extending further than our own world.
So for example you are a complete world in itself complete with a head, heart, hands, feet, intellect, feelings etc. You then allow yourself to extend past your own complete world to have a child and create the next world. This is represented by Malchus. Malchus is also the world of speech as it relates to others as one does not speak unless they need to communicate to a world outside their own. This is also a descent and limitation as you can never adequately express the essence of your entire intellect and feelings to another through speech.
It is important to emphasize that these tzimtzumim - contractions, filters etc. do not affect Hashem in anyway just as the sun is not affected when you install a tinted window in your car or home. It's only the receiver - ie. the worlds that see it differently. Chassidus has a lot more on this topic - literally thousands of pages so if your interested in a more thorough explanation on this topic I can refer some texts for you to read

I don't have time to answer your other questions all though they are questions answered in great length because I have to do homework with the kids now and my husband who was helping me with this Wink has to go to mincha. Either someone else will answer the rest of your questions over night (aust time) or I shall provide you tomorrow with sources to help you with these questions. This really is the sort of discussions we would be having in a Chassidus shiur. It requires allot of time to do this over the web and it would be conducive perhaps if you read up on some basics works of Chassidus.
so to be continued.................
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ForeverYoung

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Post Tue, Mar 01 2005, 1:19 pm
Quote:
Why couldn't Hashem just make a world that will tolerate it


this question should be addressed to the One who made our worls, I think...

Quote:
G-d could have made the world any way possible- so that the world is able to access kedusha

He did so. And He gave us instrucions on how to do it - mitzvos
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 01 2005, 1:55 pm
Ozmom- you posted wonderful clear answers! kol hakavod to you! nice summary of Malchus as well.

im just going to quote your words in the parts I think must be emphasized:
Quote:
As Hashem is Kol Yochol - 'Unlimited in power', He is able to do anything and does not have to create the world in any specific manner. He nevertheless chose to create the world specifically in this manner.


Quote:
It is important to emphasize that these tzimtzumim - contractions, filters etc. do not affect Hashem in anyway just as the sun is not affected when you install a tinted window in your car or home. It's only the receiver - ie. the worlds that see it differently.



Quote:
A man is compared to the first six sefiros (like the six workdays ) and a woman is compared to the level of the last (practical, caused the world to become a reality) sefira --Malchus(comparable to Shabbos).

mp: This seems backwards- shabbos is the least practical, least "real" day of the week and the day when we are least connected with the physical world.


we are here to make the gashmiyus into ruchniyus by using it for ruchniyus. we cant even fulfill the mitzvos inthe Torah without gashmiyus.

we know that the 6 days of the week is compared to galus and shabbos is compared to the times of Moshiach. the times of Moshiach is when the "Malchus" quality of the shechina (also like I said in the other thread, the higher level of shechina- the Makif/Sovev, although to my knowledge Malchus and Makif dont have to do with each other) will be dominant ("Nekayva Tisovev Gever.") When Moshiach comes all of the gashmiyus will be infused with kedusha to the point that everything will be ruchnius and we will all be able to see ruchniyus clearly. Shabbos symbolizes this because it is the only day of the week it is a mitzvah to have oneg from gashmiyus.
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mp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 01 2005, 5:52 pm
I appreciate the time that everyone has devoted to this topic. Whenever I read chassidus explanations ( of hair covering and other topics) I have two main problems : first like I wrote before, I do not understand why there are all these rules about klippah and tzimtzumim and so on- Obviously Hashem could have made the world without all that. It sometimes seems that the klippos are almost given independent power, not that they are a separate entity but that they are governed by laws of "nature" and operate automatically.

Also, I do find difficulties in reconciliating basic pshat and halacha with some of these explanations. Some of the questions I have mentioned in the previous thread. The answers are sometimes unsatisfactory- if we can just wash our nails to be klipa free, why can't we just wash our hair in the morning instead of covering it ?

If On ben Pelet's wife had "Mesiras Nefesh" it still doesn't explain why his salvation would come from klipa. On a broader topic of malchus and how it represents the feminine because everything comes into being, what about female animals- they bring new things to life and are they also from malchus ?

And then there is the whole confusing part about whether malchus is closer to Hashem or furthest from Hashem. Apparently the answer is that it seems further but is actually closer as we will see in the time of Moshiach. And then will the klippos be attracted to the man's hair ?

What are klippos attracted to - what seems holier but actually isn't or vise versa ? Similarly, if Shabbos is the most "practical" day because we are supposed to blend gashmius with ruchniyus, then why would women be symbolized by this day more than the men before moshiach ? Not only are the answers tricky, but then it seems like in the time of moshiach everything will be the other way.

And that brings me to my next question : what will be the point of the world in the time of moshiach ? if Hashem created this world just so that we can elevate the gashmiyus and this will be completed by the time of moshiach, why will the world continue to exist ?
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 01 2005, 5:54 pm
mp, with all these questions, seems to me like youre going to end up knowing more than any of us Very Happy
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chanab




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 01 2005, 9:58 pm
Mp, you have intelligent, thought-provoking questions.I don't profess to know all the answers and also as I said previously, it is very hard to answer these questions in a written forum. also I don't know your background in Chassidus, but I would definitely encourage you to do some hard-core learning and/or reading on the topics. Sorry I don't have time for more......... Sad
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ForeverYoung

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Post Thu, Mar 03 2005, 1:43 pm
mp, these are from Zohar - the most mistical &hard to understand level of the Torah.

Most people do not understand it, even if they think they do.

I honestly do not understand how klipos atahc themselves to my hair, but knowing that tuma gravitatets to uncovered hair helps me appreciate this mitzva more.

Quote:
Hashem could have made the world without all that.

If H' made the Devine light visible, we would not have the freedom of choice

Quote:
It sometimes seems that the klippos are almost given independent power

this is a christian phylosophy which separates good & evil

In reality, evil & tuma is absence of kedusha. The less kedusha, the more tuma. Our job is to bring kedush ato this world. Kelipos need to be converted.

Like shattered glass, they need to be cleaned & glued back on (ie, filled with kedusha)

Quote:
still doesn't explain why his salvation would come from klipa.

It did not come form kelipa.
His wife made herself more suseptible to tuma by saving his life.
Klipa itself did not paly any role in the salvation.

Quote:
what about female animals- they bring new things to life and are they also from malchus ?

they do not have neshama, so they're not avble to influence spiritual realms, I think

Quote:
confusing part about whether malchus is closer to Hashem or furthest from Hashem.

It's similar to the little letters on your car mirrors:
"Objects in the mirror are closer than they appeat"
The state of the world is such that malchus appears to be the farthest
In the ideal world it will be obvious that it is t he closest

Quote:
what will be the point of the world in the time of moshiach ? if Hashem created this world just so that we can elevate the gashmiyus and this will be completed by the time of moshiach, why will the world continue to exist ?

this is discussed at length in the Gemara.
H' created this world in order to bestow goodness onto the humankind.
Adam messed up & we're working to clean up his mess.

Just like you make your kids clean up thier toys or spills.

Nobody knows what Olam HaBa will be like, so I guess we're supposed to do what we have to do & we'll find out.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 03 2005, 1:53 pm
just to add a few points:

Quote:
If H' made the Devine light visible, we would not have the freedom of choice

in the times of Moshiach we will be able to see the Divine Light. we will even be able to see each object being created every second by Hashem.

Quote:
confusing part about whether malchus is closer to Hashem or furthest from Hashem.

im not sure what you mean about close/far from Hashem. Hashem is everywhere. on the ladder Malchus of Asiyah is farthest from the Ein Sof. Through Malchus of Asiyah this world comes into being. but that doesnt mean its far from Hashem itself because Hashem is everywhere, also in the gashmiyus.

Quote:
what will be the point of the world in the time of moshiach

from the Rambam (and Miami Boys Choir song): the Chachamim and Nevi'im only desired Moshiach in order to learn Torah all day. it seems to me that this will be the purpose of the world when Moshiach comes.
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mp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 06 2005, 12:59 am
Thanks FY and RG and everyone else.

Quote:
His wife made herself more suseptible to tuma by saving his life.

This is sort of what I mean when I wrote that it seems that klippah/tumah is given its own power. Why would she make herself more suseptible to tumah by doing something good ? Wouldn't Hashem suspend the tumah stuff in that case ? It also seems that her taking off her hair covering is an integral part of the story- it is not like a side note or whatever. I mean she could have had the same effect by taking off some other piece of clothing and scare everyone away, right ? Why is it said that she took off her hair cover and how does it fit with the kabbalah perspective on hair ?

Also, let's say that someone eats something treif to save his life. Does that tumah /klippah get attached to the person in the same way as if he just ate a cheeseburger because he was hungry ? Are these rules fixed and inflexible ( have their own power) or does Hashem decide on an individual basis ?

About Moshiach, you write :

Quote:
from the Rambam (and Miami Boys Choir song): the Chachamim and Nevi'im only desired Moshiach in order to learn Torah all day. it seems to me that this will be the purpose of the world when Moshiach comes.


Quote:
this is discussed at length in the Gemara.
H' created this world in order to bestow goodness onto the humankind.
Adam messed up & we're working to clean up his mess.

Just like you make your kids clean up thier toys or spills.


I am not sure how either of you answered this question. But thanks for trying. If we are working to clean up the world, like FY writes, then when the world is all clean, why would Hashem continue to make it exist ? And I am pretty sure that Hashem is not going to keep the world around just so we can all learn Torah- then he could have kept the Torah in shomayim with all the malochim. If the whole purpose of creation and of giving the Torah is so that we will toil and work and lift up the sparks, and clean up the world, what will happen when this is completed ? What reason will Hashem have to keep the world going ? Why wouldn't He just create another messed up planet that some other people can fix up ?
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 06 2005, 9:21 am
I wonder how Chassidus explains the story of On ben Peles.

I know I didnt answer the exact question you asked about the point of the world once Moshiach comes. I think youre really asking, why does Hashem want a perfect world to exist, what would be the point?

I am sure Chassidus discusses this somewhere, and I'm sure there are Chassidus experts that can answer this question. to me it is the same thing as asking what does it mean that Hashem has a Taivah to have a Dirah Bitachtonim, and the famous answer to that is "on Taivos you cant ask questions..."
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mp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 06 2005, 2:17 pm
Quote:
to me it is the same thing as asking what does it mean that Hashem has a Taivah to have a Dirah Bitachtonim, and the famous answer to that is "on Taivos you cant ask questions..."


Sort of. I am asking more about what happens when the Taiva is fulfilled. If you have a taiva for ice cream and you get some ice-cream, then that's it, the taiva is gone. When the world will be such that Hashem's dira b'tachtonim is complete and the ruchiniyus is fused with gashmius, as it will in the time of moshiach, what will fuel the continued existence of the world ? The only partial answer that I have heard is that there are stages in the coming of moshiach and in the first parts everything won't be perfect yet. If you do find something else, let me know. Thanks.
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ForeverYoung

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Post Mon, Mar 07 2005, 11:46 pm
Quote:
Why would she make herself more suseptible to tumah by doing something good ? Wouldn't Hashem suspend the tumah stuff in that case ? It also seems that her taking off her hair covering is an integral part of the story- it is not like a side note or whatever. I mean she could have had the same effect by taking off some other piece of clothing and scare everyone away, right ?


Probably removing other clothing she would be transgressing more.
Also, she was surrounded by her daughters - I think probably to hide -so she exposed enough to keep the messengers away but not to expose herself to public shame.

Quote:
et's say that someone eats something treif to save his life. Does that tumah /klippah get attached to the person in the same way as if he just ate a cheeseburger because he was hungry ?

There are 2 sides tp this coin:
a person had to save his life by eating treif - he is not going to be punished for it but the damage was done, so it will need to be fixed (see Sarahd's post in the mamzer thread)

Quote:
If the whole purpose of creation and of giving the Torah is so that we will toil and work and lift up the sparks, and clean up the world, what will happen when this is completed ? What reason will Hashem have to keep the world going ?

I think you need to ask your husband to learn some Gemara with you.

Quote:
H' created this world in order to bestow goodness onto the humankind.
Adam messed up & we're working to clean up his mess.

when the clean up is complete (Mashiah), the world will go on to the state it was supposed to be in when Adam would have eaten from the Eitz HaDaas with H's permission.

The neshamos, substance, the most connected to H', will 'enjoy' being next to their source and receiving t he altimate goodness from H'.

For firther explanations, you need to cover some gemara with your husband, I think.

As you said, you have some issues, and since we do not know where they come from, we cannot really help you.

You ask good questions & you need to find a person who knows you (or you're willing to open up to) and address your questions step by step.
I don't think that jumpig from thread to thread will really address all of your questions properly
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mp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 1:03 am
Quote:
a person had to save his life by eating treif - he is not going to be punished for it but the damage was done, so it will need to be fixed
Saving your life is a mitzva- venishmartem al nafshoseihem. So how can damage be done through a mitzva ?

Quote:
I think you need to ask your husband to learn some Gemara with you
. I have no idea what this means. If you have a gemara source that would address this question, please cite it. I am sorry, but I don't understand what you are getting at.

Quote:
when the clean up is complete (Mashiah), the world will go on to the state it was supposed to be in when Adam would have eaten from the Eitz HaDaas with H's permission.


I got that. According to chassidus, however, the world is created for a reason. And continues to be in existence for that reason, which is that we continue to make the world a dwelling place for Hashem, by merging gashmius and ruchnius. And my question is what purpose will there be to the existence of the world when moshiach comes and the world will already be a dwelling place for Hashem. According to your quote, why would Hashem need a place in which the world is in the state that it was in before eitz hadaas ? Obviously He doesn't, otherwise, He wouldn't have made this world the way it is, with people sinning and all that.

Quote:
As you said, you have some issues, and since we do not know where they come from, we cannot really help you.
You ask good questions & you need to find a person who knows you (or you're willing to open up to) and address your questions step by step.
I don't think that jumpig from thread to thread will really address all of your questions properly


This is why people post anonymously. Because if they use their real names, then others assume that these questions automatically are related to any previous posts. Which they are not.

These are just questions, FY. I do not know why you haven't thought about them, but it has nothing much to do with my other questions in frumkeit.

If I post anonymously maybe people will just try to answer the question and not look for my "issues".
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 5:15 am
mp wrote:
Quote:
a person had to save his life by eating treif - he is not going to be punished for it but the damage was done, so it will need to be fixed
Saving your life is a mitzva- venishmartem al nafshoseihem. So how can damage be done through a mitzva ?



When the Torah speaks about an Ir Hanidachas, which must be completely destroyed and all its inhabitants put to death, we are told that if we do this mitzva, "venosan lecho rachamim verichamcho" - Hashem will have mercy on you.

The question, of course, is why Hashem needs to have mercy on us if we're doing His will by destroying the Ir Hanidachas. The answer (that I was told by my uncle) is that doing a cruel act will make you cruel, even if you're doing it as a mitzva ("ho-odom nifal kefi peulosov"); therefore, Hashem has to give you a special promise that in this case you will not be affected by your cruel act.

If you are not given a special "dispensation" by Hashem, then your act of tuma, cruelty or whatever - regardless of your motives - will have its effect on you. Not to say that you will be punished for eating the cheeseburger to save your life, but it will still have an effect on your neshama.

Why this is so? Because this is the way Hashem created the world. Why did He create it this way? Ilu yedativ heyisiv. You'll have to ask Him after 120.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 9:49 am
mp- I like these kind of questions, I just wish I knew the answers Smile you show me how much there is for me to learn and I better start learning unless I want to be an ignoramus Very Happy
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ForeverYoung

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Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 11:08 am
Quote:
Saving your life is a mitzva- venishmartem al nafshoseihem. So how can damage be done through a mitzva ?

see the mamzer thread, pls.
I really do not have time to search 4 it

Quote:
FY: I think you need to ask your husband to learn some Gemara with you
mp: I have no idea what this means. If you have a gemara source that would address this question, please cite it. I am sorry, but I don't understand what you are getting at.


the questions u ask were asked & discussed in the Gemara in detail, and if you want the best answers, u need to learn it from the source.

A bunch of women, buisy with kids, are not the place to ask.
May be go to askMoses.

Quote:
According to chassidus, however, the world is created for a reason

Chasidus has nothing to do with this.
It is stated in the Gemara.
The reason being that H' wants to bestow His unlimited goodness on us, which He will have no problem doing after Mashiach comes.

Quote:
According to your quote, why would Hashem need a place in which the world is in the state that it was in before eitz hadaas ?

H' wanted Adam to desereve the 'state of bliss' by observing 1 mitzva - not eating from the Eitz.

Quote:
If I post anonymously maybe people will just try to answer the question and not look for my "issues".

I brough this up b/c I want to make sure we speak the same language.
If we look at things via differently coloured glass, we will never understand each other.

I have a feeling that we do ware different lenses, so to say.

I don't think that jumpig from thread to thread will really address all of your questions properly, and might just confuse you more. (you said yourself that some of the kabalistic interpritations of hair covering confused you)

PS by the way, you never pm-ed me the Darvin stuff - I'm still waiting
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mp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 8:01 pm
The mamzer thread is very different, I feel. Because there is no mitzvah involved in it at all.

Quote:
If you are not given a special "dispensation" by Hashem, then your act of tuma, cruelty or whatever - regardless of your motives - will have its effect on you


What Sarad wrote made me think. It is kind of like the way Dovid Hamelech wasn't allowed to build the Beis Hamikdash. I guess it does all go back to why Hashem created the world this way. In essence, you are writing that the system of tumah/klippa is fixed and does not depend on individual circumstance. Whatever you do, even if it is for a mitzvah, will have a bad effect on you if you involve klippah. Still, a mitzvah makes us closer to Hashem, right ? That is the point of doing any and all mitzvos. How can you come closer to Hashem through klippa- it is almost as if you are coming closer and then getting pushed away. Wouldn't it make more sense if klippah rules just got suspended if you have to do a mitzvah like saving someone's life ? Why isn't it like that ?

Quote:
The reason being that H' wants to bestow His unlimited goodness on us
Could have done so just with the malochim. Why bother with people ? What advantage will we have over malochim when moshiach comes ?

Quote:
If we look at things via differently coloured glass, we will never understand each other.


It would be nice to understand how the system works, even from outside the system. For example even if a person does not ascribe to chassidus (and prefers mussar, for example), I am sure she or he may have questions on how chassidus explains apparent contradictions within itself. And we do not require that person to be fully dedicated to chassidus before asking those questions.
Quote:
PS by the way, you never pm-ed me the Darvin stuff - I'm still waiting

I am sorry. I forgot. Remind me what I was supposed to send you and I will. If I have a chance, I will try to find that thread and check.

RG- thanks. I am pleased to see that people still enjoy intellectual discussions without getting all upset that I am asking questions that they don't have the answers to. I am just thinking out loud and don't really expect or insist that anyone come up with answers.
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ForeverYoung

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Post Tue, Mar 08 2005, 9:17 pm
Quote:
Whatever you do, even if it is for a mitzvah, will have a bad effect on you if you involve klippah. Still, a mitzvah makes us closer to Hashem, right ?

Could you pls list mitsvos that require kelipos?
There are very few of them, and those (like Ir Hanidahas) are very rarely practiced.

Quote:
Wouldn't it make more sense if klippah rules just got suspended if you have to do a mitzvah like saving someone's life ?

No, b/c there is a seder haolam.
This is the way it is.
Onan ben Peles got himself into trouble & deserved a death punishment. Only due to his wife's wisdom was he saved, not his own teshuva. He could have done hataras nedarim, if he really wanted.

Quote:
Why bother with people ?

for the same reason malachim didn't get to keep the Torah in the Heavens

Quote:
It would be nice to understand how the system works

sorry, but don't ffb's learn this in school?

I think you need a customised learning. Go to Aish seminars -
they address these issues.
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mp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 09 2005, 12:13 am
Even though it does not answer all the questions Wink , I found this article very interesting.
http://www.chabad.org/magazine.....57216
It raises another issue- G-d made this world to have a dwelling place, to bestow goodness on His creations, whatever. But what are people ? If we are all just G-dliness, however many times removed ( as the whole world is just different gradiations of elokus) then again, what is the point ? What is the point of creating beings to have an interaction with if those beings are not really separate from you in real life ? Do I really exist or am I a virtual person in someone's computer game ? It sounds funny, but it is really an interesting question, I think.

Also I don't know about ffb boys, but from this website, I would guess that ffb girls do not learn this in tremendous depth.
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