Kelipa - Malchus - Yemos Ha'Moshiach

gryp

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 9:46 am

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RG- thanks. I am pleased to see that people still enjoy intellectual discussions without getting all upset that I am asking questions that they don't have the answers to. I am just thinking out loud and don't really expect or insist that anyone come up with answers.

mp- I dont mind questions at all, "Ayn Habayshan Lomed," (you are definitely not the "She'ayno Yodeah Lishol Very Happy

)except when they are coming from a basis which is the opposite of complete belief that Torah is true. I hope you dont mind if I say this but I think youll understand what I mean when I say these questions are very different than the ones you posted way way back. I kind of get that you dont expect us to have all the answers (I mean, how could we?) and its nice to hear your questions and think about it together with you.

by the way, there are people who have studied and studied chassidus and know the answer to these questions, ie. Y.Y. Jacobson, etc. ive heard him give shiurim on deep deep maamorim about how the world works with kedusha and klipah, and about how the world will be when Moshiach comes. (ie. will Time cease to exist when Moshiach comes?) I couldnt even follow the entire thing it was pretty intense. I dont know if he has shiurim on tape or something, but its worth looking into.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Mar 09 2005, 10:42 am

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But what are people ? If we are all just G-dliness, however many times removed ( as the whole world is just different gradiations of elokus) then again, what is the point ? What is the point of creating beings to have an interaction with if those beings are not really separate from you in real life ? Do I really exist or am I a virtual person in someone's computer game ? It sounds funny, but it is really an interesting question, I think.

As I said, this is a good question, and in order to understand the answer one needs a lot of background.
I am not going to attempt to answer it b/c my understanding will probably not be clear to others, just confusing.

I suggest you attend Aish seminars, & their Rabbis are trained to answer these questions.

Motek

Sun, Apr 03 2005, 5:52 pm

I have gone back and collected the questions posed in the beginning, and sought answers for them. I’d like to begin with a mashal. If a child in elementary school was learning about atoms, protons, electrons, etc. and she asked a physics professor why protons have a positive charge and how this relates to a positive result on a medical test, how would the professor react? She/he might offer a brief answer and then tell the child she needs to learn a lot more. The child might then think the professor couldn’t answer her and regard the brief answer she received as unsatisfactory.

The nimshal – most of the questions raised in this thread cannot truly be answered without an in-depth study of Chassidus. If answers are provided, they are likely to be unsatisfactory because the questioner doesn’t have sufficient background to even appreciate how some questions aren’t even questions!

When told – you need to go and learn Chassidus, this can be understood in one of two ways. One way is, they’re right, because I only have a smattering of knowledge of Chasidus. Another way is to think, they don’t really know the answers and they’re pushing me off, telling me to learn more.

I hope that the mashal illustrates how what’s really needed is far more exposure to Chasidic thought, that the answers are there and that this is a deep subject that is covered in literally hundreds of works in Chabad Chasidus. Appreciating this is step one in discovering the answers.

That being said, I will post a few comments and answers to some of the topics that were raised here.

Motek

Sun, Apr 03 2005, 5:53 pm

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Whenever I read chassidus explanations ( of hair covering and other topics) I have two main problems : first like I wrote before, I do not understand why there are all these rules about klippah and tzimtzumim and so on

Rules?

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Obviously Hashem could have made the world without all that.

obviously

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It sometimes seems that the klippos are almost given independent power, not that they are a separate entity but that they are governed by laws of "nature" and operate automatically.

seems wrong, as nothing exists or operates without Hashem

why is there kelipa? Chasidus explains, in connection with the Chazal, “a person must say that the world (ha’olam) was created for me,” that the he’elem (concealment) was created for me so that I should have the opportunity to seek G-d within the concealment

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if we can just wash our nails to be klipa free, why can't we just wash our hair in the morning instead of covering it?

It would help us understand it, if we used the correct terminology.

As the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch says, during sleep our neshama departs (though not fully) and a ruach tuma (impure spirit) comes and rests on the body. When we wake up, the ruach tuma departs from the entire body except for the fingers. This external ruach tuma remains until we wash our hands three times, alternating hands.

a married woman’s hair isn’t kelipa; rather, it is a potential source of yenika (nourishment) to kelipa

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If On ben Peles' wife had "Mesiras Nefesh" it still doesn't explain why his salvation would come from klipa.

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Why would she make herself more suseptible to tumah by doing something good ?

it’s like asking – why should someone who is in mortal danger, eat treif if the doctors say he needs it, and the answer is, because that is the halacha

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Wouldn't Hashem suspend the tumah stuff in that case ?

possibly
the sources discuss this
eating it could possibly elevate that which is normally not elevated
alternatively, despite the necessity of eating treif in a situation of pikuach nefesh, there might be a negative effect on the person (which would explain why sometimes, Jews refused to eat treif in the concentration camps, etc. even if it meant they would die, and the Torah permits them to refuse)

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Are these rules fixed and inflexible ( have their own power) or does Hashem decide on an individual basis ?

have their own power?!
Decide on an individual basis?!

Motek

Sun, Apr 03 2005, 5:53 pm

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On a broader topic of malchus and how it represents the feminine because everything comes into being, what about female animals- they bring new things to life and are they also from malchus ?

everything is derived from malchus, the Jewish people as a whole are said to derive from malchus, and yes, women are associated with Malchus

it depends on the context, and understanding this requires serious study of Chasidus

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And then will the klippos be attracted to the man's hair ?

when G-dliness is revealed openly to all, and the ruach ha’tuma is removed from the earth, there will be no kelipa

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What are klippos attracted to - what seems holier but actually isn't or vise versa ? Similarly, if Shabbos is the most "practical" day because we are supposed to blend gashmius with ruchniyus, then why would women be symbolized by this day more than the men before moshiach ? Not only are the answers tricky, but then it seems like in the time of moshiach everything will be the other way.

kelipa seeks to leach spiritual energy from kedusha

nothing tricky about it to those who learn it in depth in Chasidus

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And that brings me to my next question : what will be the point of the world in the time of moshiach ? if Hashem created this world just so that we can elevate the gashmiyus and this will be completed by the time of moshiach, why will the world continue to exist ?

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I am asking more about what happens when the Taiva is fulfilled. If you have a taiva for ice cream and you get some ice-cream, then that's it, the taiva is gone. When the world will be such that Hashem's dira b'tachtonim is complete and the ruchiniyus is fused with gashmius, as it will in the time of moshiach, what will fuel the continued existence of the world ?

Looking at it from the perspective of a human being, who is finite, and has finite taivos, the question is a question. But G-d is infinite, and therefore the question is no question.

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If you are not given a special "dispensation" by Hashem, then your act of tuma, cruelty or whatever - regardless of your motives - will have its effect on you

special dispensation? There’s a Torah with halachos

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you are writing that the system of tumah/klippa is fixed and does not depend on individual circumstance. Whatever you do, even if it is for a mitzvah, will have a bad effect on you if you involve klippah.

not necessarily, see above

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Why bother with people ?

because Hashem wants a dira b’tachtonim, and we are the tachton

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What advantage will we have over malochim when moshiach comes

same as we have now, we are people, earthly beings, with all that entails, who were given the Torah. Angels are spiritual beings.

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but we ARE separate, though, simultaneously, we are G-dliness
if there’s an interest, there is plenty to learn on the subject in maamorim

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a person had to save his life by eating treif - he is not going to be punished for it but the damage was done, so it will need to be fixed

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Saving your life is a mitzva- venishmartem al nafshoseihem. So how can damage be done through a mitzva ?

Repeat of above

Motek

Thu, Nov 10 2005, 5:43 pm

mp wrote:

Also, let's say that someone eats something treif to save his life. Does that tumah /klippah get attached to the person in the same way as if he just ate a cheeseburger because he was hungry ?

you can look up the answer in Tanya, Igeres Ha'Teshuva, in the Rebbe's Addendum to Igeres 26 which is available in English in Lessons in Tanya and here online:

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....=7971

this is the part that answers your question:

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The Rebbe goes on to distinguish between prohibition (issur) and impurity (tumah). When something is prohibited, one can sense its inherent evil; for example, forbidden foods clog the mind and heart with spiritual congestion. Thus, even if a pregnant woman smelled forbidden food on Yom Kippur and the Torah permitted her to eat it (if her life would otherwise be in danger), eating that food would still becloud her soul.

Moreover, even when the prohibition was not intrinsic to the food, but a thought or a statement invalidated it, as for example when an animal was slaughtered with idolatrous intent, eating this food leaves its imprint. Thus, for example, the Midrash traces the wayward path of Elisha ben Avuyah (known as “Acher”) to very early beginnings — before his birth his mother had tasted food that was prepared for idolatrous worship.

In light of the above, the Rebbe goes on to note, we can understand why a nursing mother who has eaten forbidden food, even when permitted to do so because her life was endangered, should refrain from nursing her child. For although eating this food was in fact halachically permitted, the nature of the food and the spiritual blemish which it imparts to her infant remain unchanged.

This is especially so, according to the halachic determination (with regard to one who is ill as well), that a life-threatening situation merely sets aside a prohibition; it does not make the prohibited object permissible.

carrot

Fri, Nov 11 2005, 3:40 pm

[quote="ForeverYoung"]

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et's say that someone eats something treif to save his life. Does that tumah /klippah get attached to the person in the same way as if he just ate a cheeseburger because he was hungry ?

There are 2 sides tp this coin:
a person had to save his life by eating treif - he is not going to be punished for it but the damage was done, so it will need to be fixed (see Sarahd's post in the mamzer thread)

I didn't read the whole thread but this question jumped out at me, because I recently learned what I think is a different answer. Igeres HaKodesh Perek 26:

"It is impossible to elevate a forbidden thing, not on Shabbos and not on a weekday, even if he would daven and learn with that energy. Unless he ate because of Pikuach Nefesh, which Razal permitted and it then becomes [completely] permissible."

Please excuse my translation. Also if maybe this was written later on, I just wanted to post before I forgot.