Bug checking methods- by the book or by logic?

Seraph

Sun, Jan 09 2011, 2:38 pm

How do you check things for bugs? I check all greens the same way. Wash well. Hold up one at a time, inspect well, and move on to the next.

I eat lots of greens that aren't sold in the store. They're wild. People have asked me how I know how to check those veggies if they aren't written about in a bug checking book...

Scratching Head

I use logic and check them the way I would any other greens. I don't need a book to tell me that checking one type of leaf is the same as checking another type of leaf... I just do it the same way.

How do YOU check stuff for bugs? Do you need a book to tell you how, or do you use your own logic?

B'tzimtzim

Sun, Jan 09 2011, 4:19 pm

If I didn't see it in the book I would compare my vegetable to the one that is most similar and follow the that method. FWIW, your method doesn't sound thorough enough for lettuce-type greens. For those you really need a light box to see the small bugs.

mummiedearest

Sun, Jan 09 2011, 4:31 pm

B'tzimtzim wrote:

here we go again Smile

halachically, it needs to be visible by the naked eye, in sunlight. and you can definitely see the small bugs in good light with no lightbox. btdt. I have found bugs with no lightbox. and I'm extremely nearsighted, so I imagine someone with better vision should be able to find them just fine.

as far as your question, seraph, I don't go by a particular book, especially since they all advocate soaking your produce in soap for extended periods of time. yuck. I do, however, turn to the books for advice on where to find bugs on which veggies. I need to know where to look, whether each veggie actually requires checking, and to what degree they require checking.

Tova

Sun, Jan 09 2011, 4:38 pm

Combination of the published OU and Star-K guides as well as shimush my husband has had in tola'im. But, these guides are written with knowledge of the vegitation in question. I would imagine if someone had the proper knowledge, they could use their own intellect (I wouldn't necessarily call in logic). The important thing to know halachically may be when you can rely on "rov" (most) or other minority guidelines, etc. It also gives easier/best checking methods based on experienced - for instance, in some cases you can blanch broccoli in boiling water and then check the WATER for bugs, which is MUCH easier than checking the actual greens.

B'tzimtzim

Sun, Jan 09 2011, 6:04 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

B'tzimtzim wrote:

here we go again Smile

I'm aware of that (the bolded) but I often find that I don't see them on my own until after I see it with the lightbox. Anyway, she asked what people do so I told her what I do. If she wants to do differently that's her problem.

HindaRochel

Sun, Jan 09 2011, 9:30 pm

I am not sure what you mean by a book, but you can't just make up your own way and feel satisfied. You have to use halacha.

From what I understand that means holding greens up to a light source and seeing if there are any bugs or signs of insects.

But that is greens...different vegetables because of their configuration require different types of inspection.

Well written books generally explain the categories and then you go by example.

Seraph

Sun, Jan 09 2011, 11:29 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

I am not sure what you mean by a book, but you can't just make up your own way and feel satisfied. You have to use halacha.

I mean that there are specific books by rabbanim that give instructions how to check each type of vegetable for bugs, and someone was stymied that I would eat a green that wasn't in the book, because how can you know how to check it without it being listed in the book.

Quote:

From what I understand that means holding greens up to a light source and seeing if there are any bugs or signs of insects.

But that is greens...different vegetables because of their configuration require different types of inspection.

Well written books generally explain the categories and then you go by example.

Exactly. Greens are greens and you check them the same way!

Seraph

Sun, Jan 09 2011, 11:33 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

How do you determine whether a stain makes you a nidda, by the book or by logic?

Both.
But thats a different category entirely!

Its more similar to saying Fish with fins and scales are kosher. Carp, tilapia, salmon, and herring all have fins and scales are kosher. And then you go fishing and find fish with fins and scales that aren't any of the aforementioned fish and wondering if you're allowed to eat it because you've never seen that type of fish talked about in any of the halacha books or seen it in the kosher supermarket.

You use common sense. Fins and scales are kosher. That's the law. Specifics don't matter.
Bugs are assur. Check for bugs. Greens get checked this way. That's the law. Specifics of which variety of greens doesn't matter!

Seraph

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 12:11 am

shalhevet wrote:

Why don't you call Rav Via up and ask him?

Why should I? I see zero need! Cultivated products are more buggy than foraged, for the most part, because the conditions they're grown in really weaken the plants. Which is why bugs are more of an issue nowadays than they used to be.

Isramom8

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 1:21 am

What Seraph wrote about fish: Actually, we also go by a mesorah as to what animals are kosher, aside from their signs. (I don't know if we are wary of unknown fish.)

The books and courses explain that certain fruits and vegetables really shouldn't be eaten at all because they are too risky as far as infestation. How do I know that an unknown fruit or veg is not in the no-no category?

freidasima

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 2:06 am

What did people do before lightboxes? Before there were books about how to check things? They knew the clal and used their noggin which some people aka frum yidden, seem to have forgotten how to use.

The clal - if you see it with the naked eye, forget about eating it. Wash it off.
Everything should be soaked in something that would make it inedible like soap or vinegar.
Squished around.
Held up to a source of light.
When in doubt, don't.
There are also shitos vis a vis certain things which say that you can blanch and check the water.
It's rather simple actually, almost all greens that one eats raw, aka leaves, are the same, some just take more time to check as they are twisted and tiny, and others take less time.
And there you have the clalim in brief.

You want chumros...boy babe you can find them in spades. Chumra of the day, you can't eat a cucumber because it looks like a phallic symbol and women shouldn't be putting that in their mouths.
How's that for a chumra?
Wanna keep going? I'm in a mood.

Don't sweat it too much. Kashrus is for human beings not malochim.

ewa-jo

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 2:24 am

Isramom8 wrote:

The books and courses explain that certain fruits and vegetables really shouldn't be eaten at all because they are too risky as far as infestation. How do I know that an unknown fruit or veg is not in the no-no category?

That just sounds bizarre to me. Hashem made some fruits and vegetables treif? Rolling Eyes

No, people's chumros made them 'trief'.

I'm a BT, and learning the proper bug-checking methods was lower on my list of things to learn (tefilla, hashkafa, general kashrus..etc) so I did it by logic... you know... looking really carefully.

Last edited by ewa-jo on Mon, Jan 10 2011, 2:51 am; edited 1 time in total

natmichal

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 2:36 am

freidasima wrote:

like!

Isramom8

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 3:57 am

ewa-jo wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

That just sounds bizarre to me. Hashem made some fruits and vegetables treif? Rolling Eyes

No, the bugs are treif.

In different times and societies things are grown differently and different infestation is prevalent. The soil is different because of how we cultivate it and chemicals we use. Etc etc. So yes, maybe today, figs and strawberries (unless checked the old soapy way and then either peeled or cooked) are best left for birds and other creatures of Hashem.

Not eating a bug IS general kashrus. (I understand that you did check.)

HindaRochel

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 4:05 am

1. Your statement books vs logic is too general.
2. Books or Rabbinical writings or edicts etc etc are the basis of halacha.

You aren't using one or the other. You are using both together.
Logic without knowledge is like a boat without an oar (or other means of propellation). You are just adrift and hoping to make it to the right place.

So you use both.

HOWEVER, different types of greens, because of their structure, would require a different type of examination. Greens which the leaves are tightly bound (cabbage) have different requirements than loose (romaine). Different greens also have a different amount of infestation.

I don't see anything wrong with asking a Rav for a general understanding about how to go about checking particular greens. The things I would ask:

Since these are foraged foods, can I count on the idea that tightly bound leaves don't need the same checking as loose leaves?

Are think leaves or florets checkable (wild rosemary, lavender)

Does cooking them change the situation? Passing them over a heat source? For how long must they be heated or dried? Can I use a dehydrator?

It is possible that dehydrating certain foraged veggies would render them edible without extensive checking.

You might find that by asking a Rav specific questions you'll make your life easier on yourself. Just don't ask for a psak, but ask for general knowledge.

Ruchel

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 4:06 am

Heard from a kashrus rebbe: You don't need any weird new tool, but those who sell them need them!
Use your eyes and the method your (Orthodox) mother used.
If you don't have one, ask your rav.
Don't buy prechecked, it's a waste of money as the responsibility is yours and you must check anyway.
Don't try to outfrum your grandparents, it's ugly.

Very Happy

Count me in "everything is checkable" and "it's not even that hard" club. BH.

saw50st8

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 5:49 am

If you are looking for kulos on how to check foraged greens, you need a Rav. So if you don't want to check every leaf, then ask a Rav.

If you are checking every leaf, there is no issue. (We are talking greens here right?) If its not a vegetable with major crevices for bugs to hide in, checking with logic is enough.

If you can't see the bug with the naked eye in sunlight, its not considered a "bug" that you can't eat. There are "bugs" (AKA organisms) at almost every level of visibility.

nylon

Mon, Jan 10 2011, 7:09 am

Isramom8 wrote:

No, figs have always been infested. Wasps live in a symbiotic relationship with figs. Without the fig wasp, there would be no pollination and no figs--at least for some types, which I believe are the older ones. (I THINK that Smyrna figs rely on wasps and Mission don't.)

I sometimes wonder if the justification that things are more infested now is correct. 100 years ago, they weren't dousing crops with pesticides, and stories talk about checking apples for worms. I think the truth is that we are a lot stricter on bug checking than people used to be.