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Bug checking methods- by the book or by logic?
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Isramom8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 10 2011, 11:47 am
Maybe we are more careful, because in our times we are aware that living things can be very tiny, like atoms and cells and DNA. A bug that is visible once you know what you are looking for is large by comparison. So we have more responsibility to check than people did in the past.

Also, we import and export produce and grains nationally and globally, where thy are in transit and storage for a long time. In the past most of what you ate was fresh from your farm.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 10 2011, 12:38 pm
Isramom8 wrote:
Maybe we are more careful, because in our times we are aware that living things can be very tiny, like atoms and cells and DNA. A bug that is visible once you know what you are looking for is large by comparison. So we have more responsibility to check than people did in the past.

Also, we import and export produce and grains nationally and globally, where thy are in transit and storage for a long time. In the past most of what you ate was fresh from your farm.


Also, depending on where one lived, greens weren't the basis of a diet. People had figs and dates, but how often did they eat greens? Romaine lettuce as bitter herbs is mentioned in the Torah...so we know that was eaten even then, but I wonder about the frequency of eating salads for most centuries until refrigeration and means of transporting lettuce, for example, to one community to another, came into play.

Root veggies were probably more common, as were vegetables grown on trees.

Bread for many years, or other carbs (maize, wheat, potatoes, rice) served as the main stay of the diet, and only a bit of other foods, including fruits and veggies and protein. Bread literally was the staff of life.

It wasn't uncommon for many years to only eat once or twice a day. Again, bread made up the major portion of the meal.

So if you are talking about greens being only a small portion of the meal, and veggies and fruits as a whole being more limited (and limited to the right season), probably checking wasn't such a tercha.
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nylon




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 10 2011, 4:46 pm
It very much depends on what country you're talking about and what time period. Salads aren't a new invention in general (the Romans ate them; there's a famous book by an Elizabethan author about salads, and they apparently ate many more greens than we did in the 20th century). For someone in Russia? Probably much more limited. But Sephardim have eaten all kinds of vegetables and salads for a long time. Look at the sabzi dishes in Iranian cooking where they cook down an enormous pile of herbs.

Also, since Jews were more likely to be town and city dwellers due to historical restrictions on owning land, I don't think we can take home grown as a given.
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 6:56 am
Seraph wrote:
How do you check things for bugs? I check all greens the same way. Wash well. Hold up one at a time, inspect well, and move on to the next.

I eat lots of greens that aren't sold in the store. They're wild. People have asked me how I know how to check those veggies if they aren't written about in a bug checking book...

Scratching Head Scratching Head Scratching Head I use logic and check them the way I would any other greens. I don't need a book to tell me that checking one type of leaf is the same as checking another type of leaf... I just do it the same way.

How do YOU check stuff for bugs? Do you need a book to tell you how, or do you use your own logic?


by the book because it says what type of insects to watch out for, and when.
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Isramom8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 8:28 am
In All For The Boss, Ruchoma Shain writes how in Mir, they ate mostly meat and chicken. Fresh produce was so rare that she had to pay a ton for an orange for her husband who was sick. Many Jews lived in similar parts of the world.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 8:49 am
Isramom8 wrote:
In All For The Boss, Ruchoma Shain writes how in Mir, they ate mostly meat and chicken. Fresh produce was so rare that she had to pay a ton for an orange for her husband who was sick. Many Jews lived in similar parts of the world.
But many jews didn't. I know that the vegetables I forage have been eaten by Jews and Arabs in the area for thousands of years. Some of the traditional recipes in this area include foraged foods. So many they werent able to grow things themselves if they didnt live on a farm, but that doesnt mean they didnt eat veggies.
Paying for an orange a lot doesnt mean that other produce wasn't available. It just means that oranges didnt grow locally.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 9:03 am
Seraph wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
In All For The Boss, Ruchoma Shain writes how in Mir, they ate mostly meat and chicken. Fresh produce was so rare that she had to pay a ton for an orange for her husband who was sick. Many Jews lived in similar parts of the world.
But many jews didn't. I know that the vegetables I forage have been eaten by Jews and Arabs in the area for thousands of years. Some of the traditional recipes in this area include foraged foods. So many they werent able to grow things themselves if they didnt live on a farm, but that doesnt mean they didnt eat veggies.
Paying for an orange a lot doesnt mean that other produce wasn't available. It just means that oranges didnt grow locally.


Laura Ingalls Wilder writes about a birthday party she attended in her teens. They each got their own orange!!!! But they ate plenty of other vegetables, but oranges weren't grown there. The Mir was in a colder climate right? Oranges don't grow well there.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 9:37 am
But in Israel many of the basic veggies were cucumbers, dill, olives and similar food. Yes they ate a type of spinach like food, but that was mostly the poor.

Lentils and other beans were consumed but really, bread was the basis of most people's diets.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 9:40 am
Seraph wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
In All For The Boss, Ruchoma Shain writes how in Mir, they ate mostly meat and chicken. Fresh produce was so rare that she had to pay a ton for an orange for her husband who was sick. Many Jews lived in similar parts of the world.
But many jews didn't. I know that the vegetables I forage have been eaten by Jews and Arabs in the area for thousands of years. Some of the traditional recipes in this area include foraged foods. So many they werent able to grow things themselves if they didnt live on a farm, but that doesnt mean they didnt eat veggies.
Paying for an orange a lot doesnt mean that other produce wasn't available. It just means that oranges didnt grow locally.


But it was mainly lentils, onions, cucumbers,grapes, olives, pomegranates, dates, figs, barley, wheat. Romaine lettuce was also probably available to them, as were various herbs. But they didn't eat a whole lot of salads...mainly grains and legumes and cheeses, supplemented by foods that I listed above.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 10:05 am
In some instances, you have to use your own seichel. For example, a bag of potato chips or a box of cereal. You wouldn't expect infestation yet you are responsible for whatever you put into your own mouth.
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nylon




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 1:53 pm
Yes, in Northern Europe, oranges were a rare x-mas treat. But in summer and fall, they would have had other fruits--apples, plums, berries, cherries. Especially ones who lived in smaller towns, where you could have a fruit tree by your house, or go berry picking.

HindaRochel, I'm not at all sure that Jews in the Middle East did not eat leafy vegetables. I have plenty of Middle Eastern/Iranian/North African cookbooks calling for raw and cooked greens, including a Pesachdik Iranian recipe for ghormeh sabzi. Even rich Egyptians will tell you they love meloukhia, so it's not just the poor.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 2:01 pm
nylon wrote:
Yes, in Northern Europe, oranges were a rare x-mas treat. But in summer and fall, they would have had other fruits--apples, plums, berries, cherries. Especially ones who lived in smaller towns, where you could have a fruit tree by your house, or go berry picking.

HindaRochel, I'm not at all sure that Jews in the Middle East did not eat leafy vegetables. I have plenty of Middle Eastern/Iranian/North African cookbooks calling for raw and cooked greens, including a Pesachdik Iranian recipe for ghormeh sabzi. Even rich Egyptians will tell you they love meloukhia, so it's not just the poor.
Meloukhia is made with mallow, or chubezeh or chalmit, one of the greens I forage. Yea, that was one of the greens I was talking about as being traditional to eat all throughout this region.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 2:16 pm
nylon wrote:
Yes, in Northern Europe, oranges were a rare x-mas treat. But in summer and fall, they would have had other fruits--apples, plums, berries, cherries. Especially ones who lived in smaller towns, where you could have a fruit tree by your house, or go berry picking.

HindaRochel, I'm not at all sure that Jews in the Middle East did not eat leafy vegetables. I have plenty of Middle Eastern/Iranian/North African cookbooks calling for raw and cooked greens, including a Pesachdik Iranian recipe for ghormeh sabzi. Even rich Egyptians will tell you they love meloukhia, so it's not just the poor.


I didn't say they did NOT eat green leafy veggies, just I don't think they would have eaten a whole lot compared to other foods which would have been easier to forage for(if they needed to) or which would have resulted in a more bountiful as well as preservable crop, than mallow for instance.
It isn't a matter of NOT eating them, it would be the amount.

Diet would have been bread based, with milk as a protein, not veggie based, as that is where most of the nutrition would be, so checking veggies would not have been as time consuming.


Part of the problem is WHEN we are referring to...Different periods, different countries, all had different eating patterns.

Foraging for greens (that aren't homegrown) takes more time than foraging for olives or dates etc. Olives, dates, figs and barley would, pound for pound, more easily satisfy hunger than greens.

Part of the reason it is difficult to talk about these issues is that there is not one way for all places and at all times.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 2:31 pm
HindaRochel wrote:
nylon wrote:
Yes, in Northern Europe, oranges were a rare x-mas treat. But in summer and fall, they would have had other fruits--apples, plums, berries, cherries. Especially ones who lived in smaller towns, where you could have a fruit tree by your house, or go berry picking.

HindaRochel, I'm not at all sure that Jews in the Middle East did not eat leafy vegetables. I have plenty of Middle Eastern/Iranian/North African cookbooks calling for raw and cooked greens, including a Pesachdik Iranian recipe for ghormeh sabzi. Even rich Egyptians will tell you they love meloukhia, so it's not just the poor.


I didn't say they did NOT eat green leafy veggies, just I don't think they would have eaten a whole lot compared to other foods which would have been easier to forage for(if they needed to) or which would have resulted in a more bountiful as well as preservable crop, than mallow for instance.
It isn't a matter of NOT eating them, it would be the amount.
Interesting you say that. Because from my research, especially since mallow grows bountifully everywhere, mallow was traditionally foraged and dried for use during other seasons. Mallow is very easy to preserve.

Quote:
Foraging for greens (that aren't homegrown) takes more time than foraging for olives or dates etc. Olives, dates, figs and barley would, pound for pound, more easily satisfy hunger than greens.
Amusing you say that. Have you ever foraged for these things? I've foraged for olives and mallow, and trust me, mallow is a million times easier and less time consuming! Olive picking is hard hard hard work, and then you have to go through them all and check them for bugs- olives are infested with bugs! And then you have to split the olives, then pickle them (a whole long process with lots of steps) and then let them sit for three months before they are good.
For one jar of olives, I probably put in a good 5 or 6 hours of work (if not more), while that same sized jar packed with mallow (cooked) would take me maximum an hour, probably closer to half an hour.

And if I compare that to broccoli raab, I can fill that jar with broccoli raab in 10 minutes, and in less than 30 minutes check that whole lot for bugs.

Yea, greens are definitely easier.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 2:48 pm
Quote:
Foraging for greens (that aren't homegrown) takes more time than foraging for olives or dates etc. Olives, dates, figs and barley would, pound for pound, more easily satisfy hunger than greens.
Amusing you say that. Have you ever foraged for these things? I've foraged for olives and mallow, and trust me, mallow is a million times easier and less time consuming! Olive picking is hard hard hard work, and then you have to go through them all and check them for bugs- olives are infested with bugs! And then you have to split the olives, then pickle them (a whole long process with lots of steps) and then let them sit for three months before they are good.
For one jar of olives, I probably put in a good 5 or 6 hours of work (if not more), while that same sized jar packed with mallow (cooked) would take me maximum an hour, probably closer to half an hour.

And if I compare that to broccoli raab, I can fill that jar with broccoli raab in 10 minutes, and in less than 30 minutes check that whole lot for bugs.

Yea, greens are definitely easier.[/quote]

How long does it take to look for olives? I picked fruit as a kid...We had cherry trees and apple trees and plum trees and it wouldn't take me that long to get the fruits from the trees. Plucking olives? Come on. Yes to fill a jar, but you get more nourishment from the jar of olives. See you are comparing filling a jar with olives to filling it with thick leaves...not the same. Like saying "well I can pack more lettuce into the same space as an avocado...yeah but the avocado will give you more bang for the buck, so to speak. Well, but I was a climber and loved being in trees, rather than bending down and pulling weeds...maybe that is the difference. Took me no time to get the fruit off.

Same size is NOT the nutritional content.

And it doesn't take me so long to check the olives, easier to see the holes. Bugs on greens are about the same color. You need a good light. Roll the olives over in your hand...holes? Split, pack in brine and set on the shelf. Leaves? Rinse off, hold up to the light, and check it all over, turn it over making sure there isn't anything on the other side, flick off little bits of stuff that have you puzzled. It takes me a 1/2hr to check non-bodek leaves...for one salad that's a lot of time.

I could be wrong, but I think greens would have made up less of the diet than figs and dates.

I remember reading about how some of the poor lived in Israel in the late 1800s earlier 1900s and they'd eat dates from the trees. Rav Lurie ate pickled cucumbers. That isn't what I call greens.

I have done enough foraging for food to know how to pick from a tree and how prickly weeds can be.

Again, depends on when and where.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 3:05 pm
HindaRochel wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Foraging for greens (that aren't homegrown) takes more time than foraging for olives or dates etc. Olives, dates, figs and barley would, pound for pound, more easily satisfy hunger than greens.
Amusing you say that. Have you ever foraged for these things? I've foraged for olives and mallow, and trust me, mallow is a million times easier and less time consuming! Olive picking is hard hard hard work, and then you have to go through them all and check them for bugs- olives are infested with bugs! And then you have to split the olives, then pickle them (a whole long process with lots of steps) and then let them sit for three months before they are good.
For one jar of olives, I probably put in a good 5 or 6 hours of work (if not more), while that same sized jar packed with mallow (cooked) would take me maximum an hour, probably closer to half an hour.

And if I compare that to broccoli raab, I can fill that jar with broccoli raab in 10 minutes, and in less than 30 minutes check that whole lot for bugs.

Yea, greens are definitely easier.


How long does it take to look for olives? I picked fruit as a kid...We had cherry trees and apple trees and plum trees and it wouldn't take me that long to get the fruits from the trees. Plucking olives? Come on. Yes to fill a jar, but you get more nourishment from the jar of olives. See you are comparing filling a jar with olives to filling it with thick leaves...not the same. Like saying "well I can pack more lettuce into the same space as an avocado...yeah but the avocado will give you more bang for the buck, so to speak. Well, but I was a climber and loved being in trees, rather than bending down and pulling weeds...maybe that is the difference. Took me no time to get the fruit off.

Same size is NOT the nutritional content.

And it doesn't take me so long to check the olives, easier to see the holes. Bugs on greens are about the same color. You need a good light. Roll the olives over in your hand...holes? Split, pack in brine and set on the shelf. Leaves? Rinse off, hold up to the light, and check it all over, turn it over making sure there isn't anything on the other side, flick off little bits of stuff that have you puzzled. It takes me a 1/2hr to check non-bodek leaves...for one salad that's a lot of time.

I could be wrong, but I think greens would have made up less of the diet than figs and dates.

I remember reading about how some of the poor lived in Israel in the late 1800s earlier 1900s and they'd eat dates from the trees. Rav Lurie ate pickled cucumbers. That isn't what I call greens.

I have done enough foraging for food to know how to pick from a tree and how prickly weeds can be.

Again, depends on when and where.
It doesn't take too long to find either olives or greens. They're both right under our feet. But each jar filling with olives takes a while! Olives are small, they're dark, and they're hard to find on the tree. The whole jar filled probably takes 2-3 hours. And then you have to go through and remove the bugs. No, no holes from the bugs- sometimes its just a little brown dot on the olives. And you cut away to see if theres bugs underneath. And there usually is. And you either cut out the buggy part or toss the whole olives. Of the olives I picked, I think I threw 1/3 away, and another 1/3 I had to cut out bad parts. So it was more than just filling the jar with olives.
Then you pack in water. Sit for a day. Pour out the water. Fill with new water. Sit for a day. Repeat every day for 7-10 days. Fill jar with water and salt. Check with a raw egg to see if it floats. Add citric acid or lemon juice, bay leaves, garlic, and olives. Cover with a layer of olive oil.
Yea, all that work for one jar.

As for nutrition, you're grossly underestimating the nutrition of foraged greens.
100 grams or 1 cup of chopped brocoli raab gives you:
3 grams of protein, 52% DV of vitamin A, 34% vitamin C, 11% calcium, and 12% iron.
It's a good source of Pantothenic Acid, and a very good source of Dietary Fiber, Protein, Vitamin A, Vitamin C, Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol), Vitamin K, Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Folate, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Zinc and Manganese. (From here http://nutritiondata.self.com/.....359/2)

Olives, on the other hand, in 100 grams you get:
1 gram of protein, 8% DV Vitamin A, 5% Calcium, 3% iron.
It is also a good source of Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol).

Hrmmm, what gives more bang for your buck?


And if you say figs were more of a staple than greens, note that figs are just as buggy, if not more, than greens. And some people say you have to avoid figs entirely because of bug issues. So it makes you wonder what the frum people did. If they ate the figs, even with the possible bug issues, or not.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 3:14 pm
And if you want to compare that to mallow:

If you have ½ cup mallow(45g), you are getting 20 kcal (20 calories) of energy, 1.3 g of protein, 0.3 g of fat, 3.1 g of carbohydrate, 0.4 of fiber, 87.3 mg of calcium, 22.5 mg of calcium, 1,334 of beta carotene, 1.0 mg of iron, 0.02 of thiamin, 0.04 mg of riboflavin, 0.3 mg of niacin, and 10 mg of Vitamin C.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2011, 3:16 pm
And figs-
in 100 grams of fig, you get:
74 calories
1 gram protein
3% vitamin A
4% iron
3% vitamin C
2% iron
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 12 2011, 7:37 am
My grandfather got sardines for Hanuka. A tin box for the whole family. Doesn't mean fish was rare in Poland, just sardines!
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 12 2011, 8:53 am
Wow I've never read anything more discouraging about forage shopping---a lot of work for a couple of bags of lettuce which I can get for 6 or 7 shekels. I thought you were getting a lot of food for a small cost in time.
But inspecting enough broccoli rabe or mallow to feed my family would cost me at least an hours time...the leaves make it hard to see the bugs which are the same color...I use to do this with romaine. And I would end up throwing out so much...

Olives and dates and figs were the staples, whether you like that answer or not. I've done the research (for Israel and Jews, not for the world at large)I don't know where you are picking but maybe it was just better back then. Not a whole lot of work and a great deal in the end in terms of energy, which people who worked all day in the field or tending the animals, or spinning wool and getting water from the well would need. DYou didn't need many to make you feel full and give you adequate nutrition. Along with bread, which took a great deal of time to make....between grinding and making the bread...that would give you a great deal of nourishment.

Primitive man also used cattail rhizomes as grain...kind of interesting sounding.

Anyway...I'm not sure why you are making foraging sound so onerous...
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