Children Don't Need Teachers; They Need Models - True?!??

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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amother

Tue, Sep 05 2006, 11:14 pm

I don't want to sing my praises, but I have pretty good social skills and I attribute most of them to my mother's upbringing. When I (and my siblings) was a child my mother always taught us the importance of saying hello to people, even when they were 'only' her friends and not ours. She didn't accept shyness as an excuse and taught us to overcome whatever social inhibitions we might have had. To date, whenever I walk into a simcha I will not sit down before I have made my rounds and said hello to every relative and friend at the affair. When I meet acquaintances on the street I make eye contact and say a gracious hello with a pleasant smile. I am warm and involved. My children see this all the time, I talk about its importance at home, and I get complimented on this trait all the time.
My two daughters, ages 20 and 13, seem not to want to learn any of these 'acquired' skills. I don't nag them, I gently encourage, but they don't begin to emulate me in any way, oftentimes bordering on what might appear to be snobbishness or disrespect. At simchas, they try avoiding seeing and acknowledging relatives. On the street, when we are together, and we meet relatives/friends and I am all friendly and gushy, they stand there like statues, barely acknowledging the other person's presence. What really pisses me off is that with their own close friends they are excitable, happy, friendly, etc.
Yesterday, I went to pay a shiva visit to an aunt who lost her husband r'l. My older daughter joined me. I sat down right next to my aunt and patted her hand all the while I was talking to her, telling her what a wonderful husband she had, how she needs to take care of herself for the sake of her children and I threw in, 'and for the sake of your nieces', and she loved it. My daughter sat three chairs away, not saying a word. When we were getting up to leave, I bent over to my aunt, embraced her in a bear hug, patted her cheek and comforted her. My daughter, took an additional five steps further away, and from her distance mumbled the words of comfort that one says to an 'avel'. I was shattered. All the while, I had gently encouraged her to sit closer, but she refused. When we left, I told her in half-jest (I didn't want to let her know that I was appalled because then she'd jump on the defensive)"I moved the closest I was able to get to Aunt X and you moved the farthest away you were able to get!?" She mumbled a 'yeah, yeah'.
Later in the afternoon, I was on the street with my 13-year-old and we were coming face to face with relatives from out of town. I told my daughter, "Look, there's Aunt Z with her two daughters. Their names are so and so. Please remember to say hello and be friendly." I might as well have spoken to the wall. She hardly greeted them, looked bored the whole time, and came across as downright obnoxious. I was able to see that the relatives were very unimpressed, to say the least.
All my life I've known that children, if they are taught by example, will copy that behavior. Where have I gone wrong? This is so aggravating for me!! Please, those of you who have older children, please advise me and let me know of your experiences.

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 05 2006, 11:39 pm

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It is good, but it may be more difficult for some children.

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My two daughters, ages 20 and 13, seem not to want to learn any of these 'acquired' skills. I don't nag them, I gently encourage, but they don't begin to emulate me in any way, oftentimes bordering on what might appear to be snobbishness or disrespect.

Maybe they are shy, or still in the "teenage crises" (that is sure for the 13 one) and don't want to "be like you".

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What really pisses me off is that with their own close friends they are excitable, happy, friendly, etc.

Teenagers

Maybe they really aren't interested in your friends or older people, but aren't mature enough to pretend.

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My daughter sat three chairs away, not saying a word. When we were getting up to leave, I bent over to my aunt, embraced her in a bear hug, patted her cheek and comforted her. My daughter, took an additional five steps further away, and from her distance mumbled the words of comfort that one says to an 'avel'. I was shattered. All the while, I had gently encouraged her to sit closer, but she refused. When we left, I told her in half-jest (I didn't want to let her know that I was appalled because then she'd jump on the defensive)"I moved the closest I was able to get to Aunt X and you moved the farthest away you were able to get!?" She mumbled a 'yeah, yeah'.

She is probably not used to dealing with "heavy stuff" like death. I know I wouldn't be comfortable or know what do/say either (and I just turned 22), especially if the lady was crying or really depressed.

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I was able to see that the relatives were very unimpressed, to say the least.

Don't worry, she's just a young teen. People understand.

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All my life I've known that children, if they are taught by example, will copy that behavior.

Not always, esp. during teenage years, but even as adults. Are you exactly like your mother? Not just for social skills, but level of frumkeit, politics, opinions on what is beautiful to wear... I know I am not.
Have a talk with your daughters, and explain them why they should act like you want them to act. Not to be like you or please you, but because it will bring them X & Y.

stem

Tue, Sep 05 2006, 11:42 pm

Sounds like typical teenage behavior. They're embarrassed by your overly friendly behavior towards everyone and try to distance themselves. They want to maintain their individuality, so they purposely act the opposite as you when they are in your company.
Many teenagers actually emulate their parents when they are not around...

amother

Wed, Sep 06 2006, 10:37 am

OP Here:
Would you consider the twenty year old, who is almost 21, a teenager? I mean, if she won't learn now, when will she? When she is 30 or 40?
My kids are good kids B'h. I always hear them talk about me on the phone to their friends and they are quoting me here and there and they have a high opinion of me and of my opinions and teachings, yet somehow with this issue I am at a loss.
Thanks Ruchel and Stem for your advice, but I cannot accept that they are just acting like teenagers. C'mon older imas of older kids, where are you? Please advise!

Ruchel

Wed, Sep 06 2006, 1:27 pm

Quote:

Would you consider the twenty year old, who is almost 21, a teenager?

I would tell you if I could talk to her. I remember these days very well lol
But, according to her personality, she may be fully adult, or still very much teenlike.

Ok, I just asked my mom, and she said before getting married I was still very much teen like some days. LOL

Quote:

I mean, if she won't learn now, when will she? When she is 30 or 40?

When she will stop being a teen and acting oppositional. Or maybe she will stop being oppositional but never agree with this way of acting, and never emulate you. Or it will come to her when she will be a mother too. Only Hashem knows.

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I always hear them talk about me on the phone to their friends and they are quoting me here and there and they have a high opinion of me and of my opinions and teachings, yet somehow with this issue I am at a loss.

I did that too. I acted a lot less nicely than what I really felt and thought and said about my parents...

Now, maybe it's not a teen problem, but they are really shy, and just cannot find the strength to do it.

gryp

Wed, Sep 06 2006, 3:01 pm

amother, I think you should leave them alone and let them be their own individuals.
they will one day have their own personal social grace.
not necessarily will they act just like you, but if you keep expecting them to, you may never notice their own acquired social manners.

Tefila

Wed, Sep 06 2006, 10:08 pm

Ok so as a mother of older boys yes some are naturually more friendly then others. I will say the more of a deal you make of it the more they will stay away. I have one son that could conquer the world with his outgoingness friendliness and compassion, the other you have to stick around to get a feel of who he is and yes he too is very special. Smile

It sounds to me more like rebellousness and if this is the only way and hopefully just a phase, I say let it be oh and the 13 yr old is just a) being a teenager or b) copying her sister. The 20 yr old clearly doesn't want to be like you in that respect for right now anyways. So this is her method of rebelling imo. She is her own person who knows.... is she more your husbands personality shy or reserved?

Motek

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 12:38 pm

O.P. - you named the thread using the word "models" but it sounds, from what you wrote, that you haven't just been modeling but have actively encouraged (your daughters might use a more pejorative word ...).

What is your relationship with them like in general?

JRKmommy

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 1:42 pm

Children do learn from parents as role models - but that doesn't mean that they inherit all of your personality traits.

Is your dh naturally outgoing? They may have inherited his personality.

I was PAINFULLY shy as a child/teen. My father is very quiet, and I was like him. It was a real struggle for me to overcome this, and I literally needed to plan out conversations in my head first and make a huge effort to get over my terror. [I come across as talkative online - but that's because I am much better doing things in writing, where I can see everything and plan out what I say.] My demeanor has nothing to do with disrespect or snobbishness.

You sound like you would come across as someone who is VERY demonstrative and social. Your daughters may just feel overwhelmed by it. Even if it is a real effort on your part, your daughters may think that this is simply your personality, and feel that they are very different. As well, I used to hate it when my mother said anything that pointed out that I was shy, even though it was so obvious that I was, because I was so sensitive about it.

Here is what I WOULD suggest (and what worked for me):

1. Talk to your girls about the fact that you do this deliberately, and review the concepts of ahavas yisrael, having guests, etc. This way, it's not just "your personality".

2. You could then mention some of the things that you learned to do because of these concepts.

3. If you ever struggled with this, let them know. It really helped me identify with my mom when I learned that she had similar issues. Tell them how you overcame the struggles.

4. Don't nag or talk about the past, but give a bit of practical advice for upcoming situations. For example: "Let's think about guests for next Shabbos. Girls - who should we invite? Do you know of anyone who is alone or could especially benefit from an invite?" Keep the advice simple and positive - one step at a time.

soonamommy

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 1:49 pm

I am in my low twenties. I can give you some perspective from the other side of things.

I have a close friend who lived at home with her parents until about 23 or 24. Her mother is a lot like you, very friendly and outgoing, everyone knows her and feels comfortable around her. She's extremely easygoing and knows what to say all the time.

Her daughter (my friend, I'll call her Tzippy) is the opposite. She's extremely reserved, tight, and tense. Her mother agonized over this daughter's behavior for years. Whatever the mother did, Tzippy refused to do, and would purposely avoid situations where relatives and friends of her mother would be present. Was she doing it out of rebelliousness? Maybe. I don't think so, though. This is her personality.

With friends, Tzippy warms up, but only to an extent. She's excited and vibrant around people she's known for years. With coworkers she's a cold fish. Her boss likes her because she gets her work done and doesn't waste time chatting. She has one friend at work, and they talk during lunch. That's the way she is. I don't know if her mother ever realized that she wasn't doing it to be obnoxious (I'm sure at times it came off that way) and that this is her personality.

As a few other posters said, treating your daughters like they are social misfits will not make things better and may blind you to see just how they act when they don't think you're around. Children do model their parents' behavior to some degree, and in time, I'm sure she'll develop her own social graces, as my friend has.

morningstar

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 7:17 pm

soonamommy, JRK, Salut

.

OP, seems you and many of your relatives are demonstrative extroverts. It can be hard for extroverts to understand introverts. Extroverts are energized by parties, and people, and friendly banter. Introverts need time and space and quiet reflection to recharge after time spent in crowds.

I understand that you were warm and effusive at the shiva call, and that may have been right for the person you were visiting. But don't assume that this is the only proper reaction. Many introverts sitting shiva would have cringed at being touched. Many of them appreciate the people who come and sit and don't say anything at all (rather than the babblers who often say things that are hurtful).

You have the skills and personality to warm a room-- but if you let your daughters develop confidence in themselves, you may find that people appreciate them for their depth, their understanding, their ability to give others their space.

amother

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 8:08 pm

Motek wrote:

MOTEK, I have a very nice relationship with my children, but I am quite demanding in certain areas of discipline, especially when derech eretz and kavod habriyos, a/k/a decency, are at stake. However, I don't hound my children about the things I want to teach them; I try to convey my beliefs in a warm, friendly, but strong manner.
I think some of the responses are a bit off target because some posters seem to be accusing me in a roundabout way of expecting too much from my girls. That is not my objective; my only goal is for them to behave in a civil manner toward adults who deserve more than being ignored or being avoided, when it is totally out of line.

Motek

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 8:26 pm

It would be enlightening to hear what your daughters have to say about this.

Tefila

Thu, Sep 07 2006, 8:27 pm

Quote:

I think some of the responses are a bit off target because some posters seem to be accusing me in a roundabout way of expecting too much from my girls. That is not my objective; my only goal is for them to behave in a civil manner toward adults who deserve more than being ignored or being avoided, when it is totally out of line

Good Luck then What

amother

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 1:59 am

My teens really don't like going to be menachem avel, and unfortunately, there were friends, children they knew from camp or school to whom they should have gone, and I either practically forced them to, or they just didn't. embarrassed

It's not that they don't care ch"v, but they are very shy and don't know how to handle it. I am shy too, but I go when I should.

Ruchel

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 3:31 am

amother wrote:

they are very shy and don't know how to handle it. I am shy too, but I go when I should.

Yes, because you are adult. With years you learn to force yourself and it comes a habit.

amother

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 3:36 am

I am slightly older than your older daughter. My mother sounds just like you. Growing up I was mortified sometimes with how friendly and forward she could be. The more she would comment the less I would do.

But I can tell you that all her hard work paid off. Now I am married and have my life and what would you guess, I too am friendly, outgoing and emulate all that she tried all those years to instill in me, but it took YEARS of me being painfully shy and people probably thinking that I was rude.

Needless to say, my mother was shocked.

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