Giving in to a defiant child

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Our Challenging Children (gifted, ADHD, sensitive, defiant)

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amother

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 10:40 am

I need serious parenting advice.
I dont know what label my 5 yr dd should have, but she definitely has something. the gifted /ADD /defiant thread sounds familiar, but while my dd is very intelligent I am not quick to say she is gifted, nor ADD though she might be.(the hyperfocusing sounds like her) but the defiant label certainly applies. she can be so sweet and loving, and turn into a horrible screaming bratty kid when she doent get her way. one tiny thing can set her off, and she'll just be miserable for the rest of the day. there is so much to her that I wont discuss it all here, but this part is what I want to discuss now:

I know that her trigger is not getting what she wants, but am I supposed to make sure to always give her what she wants so the situation should not escalate?

it'll start with something little like his sandwich is bigger than mine, I want to trade. she eats less than big brother so no trading lunch boxes. thats it. she'll be on a roller coaster looking for other things she is unhappy about, he got this, I want that, until it explodes into a full blown tantrum screaming and yelling. and being that she is stubborn, doesn't end until she is convinced that she will eventually get what she wants. either I come up with a solution she is happy with, or if I wont budge, she makes up a solution and convinces herself that I will be doing it for her, even if if I wont.

I have no clue how to handle her. I know from experience that warmth and love helps her get back on the right track, and punishments are practically useless. the only thing a time out does is allow a cooloff period, which is fine. but no threat of punishment can deter her from this behaviour next time. and nothing but her preferred solution, imaginary or real, can set her back to normal.

is giving in to her all the time the right method? I know it will work, and if she always got what she wanted she'd never explode. since its impossible to teach her that she cant always get what she wants, (BTDT) I dont know what else to do.

zigi

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 10:46 am

read the book the explosive child. it talks about how to deal with kids like this

how does she act in school? what do the teachers do?

tikva18

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 10:53 am

If you found method that works then by all means use it! Give her the space to calm down. Be so happy that you have something that works. The most amazing book I've read which made a huge difference in our lives is The Explosive Child by Ross Green - I walked away with so many ideas from that book and I've used it for many different people - even those who aren't 'exposive'.

May you solve these issues now while she's only 5. <--- and that's a serious bracha.

Fox

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 11:25 am

The Explosive Child sounds great! It sounds like it might have ideas for dealing with teenagers, too, so I'll have to check it out.

One of the great things about having a child with the intellectual capacity to understand more abstract concepts is that you can actually engage in "meta-parenting" -- explaining the how and why of your behavior as a parent, almost as if you were narrating your parenting to an unseen audience.

I have a DD (now age 16) who shares some of these characteristics, and I made a deal with her early on: I told her that I will agree never to say "no" to something automatically without thinking it over. In return, she must understand that her safety and well-being are ultimately my responsibility and that on those occasions when I must refuse a request, she must abide by my decision.

This didn't work perfectly, of course! But over time, she came to really trust me not to shut her down without a fair hearing. BTW, my DH did not develop this kind of relationship with her, and they remain seriously at odds. I also had to choose my battles carefully, and I have agreed to many things over the years that would not have been my first choice -- but I'm gratified at how willing she is to concede on the truly important stuff.

tikva18

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 11:28 am

Fox wrote:

It has been awesome for teenagers - at least for me. Parenting is hard.

marina

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 12:42 pm

Explosive child is good. It basically teaches you to problem solve with your child. It gives vocabulary tools and ideas for how to get the conversation going the way you want it to go.

But it seems like OP has a different problem, one where she does not know how to give an effective punishment.

I would do the explosive child talking sessions after learning how to assert your authority, esp with a 5 year old. This would be reversed for a teen where asserting authority and giving out consequences will be often counterproductive.

amother

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 1:26 pm

OP here
I will have to look into the explosive child.
Fox, thanks for your message. I have noticed you posting about this child in the past and was amazed that there was another one like mine out there. so I will definitly take your advice seriously.

Quote:

But it seems like OP has a different problem, one where she does not know how to give an effective punishment.

no I dont think so.
asserting my authority is what gets me into fights with her in the first place. if I would be more caring and giving in to her, we wouldnt have fights.
after having time to think, I think where I went wrong this morning, was yet again, not having the patience to let her do something very important to her. I thought it was not only unimportant but wasting everyone's time since we'd be late to school b/c of it, and in return I got a half hour tantrum, and everyone half an hour later to school, than we would have been. not to mention the embarrassment of having a very public tantrum on the school front steps. (not that I behaved differntly to her b/c of the embarrassment, but I was still embarrassed) I never did give in, but in her mind she decided I was going to give her a double prize when we got home, so it was ok to finally go to school.

tikva18

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 2:03 pm

marina wrote:

If you don't have a defiant/explosive child - then you may not understand the situation. Trust me when I say it is not lack of meting out effective punishment. What works for a regular child does NOT work for a defiant/explosive one - believe me. Disastrous results can occur. Sad

Fox

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 2:09 pm

amother wrote:

Fox, thanks for your message. I have noticed you posting about this child in the past and was amazed that there was another one like mine out there.

The good news is that many of these kids are seriously, seriously brilliant! Not necessarily at school, but in some way.

My DD is quite literally an illuy of business and marketing. She started a backyard camp when she was 12, and it has since developed into a 3-division enterprise enrolling about 50-75 kids each summer in total. And this is just one of her enterprises. She also imports clothes from China; invested in a dog-walking business; and is currently working on developing a website targeted to disabled teens.

One of her ideas at age 13: she noticed that other backyard camps ended well before school started, so she rented a moonwalk and invited all the nearby backyard camps. She handed out pinwheels to the campers that she'd gotten on the cheap, each with a label printed with the name, phone number, and dates of her camp. Needless to say, she got a flood of calls during August that year.

The same quality that makes my DD stubborn and sometimes defiant also makes her completely fearless and willing to try new ideas.

amother wrote:

asserting my authority is what gets me into fights with her in the first place.

I'm speaking from my limited experience only, but I found that the traditional ideas of authority really don't work with my DD. True authority must be earned, in her humble opinion. Though this isn't 100 percent wrong, it's not completely right, either. In school, for example, DD was beloved by the confident, secure teachers who knew their stuff. She was equally disliked by the insecure teachers who wanted everyone to jump at their command.

I've never quite gotten her to the point where she will be automatically deferential to someone simply based on age or position, but I've convinced her to be a bit more open-minded, which is something.

On the flip side, she is completely cooperative once you've earned her respect. In my DD's case, at least, she is a big believer that "lions don't need to roar." The more you try to exert your authority, the more she resists. Give her consistent slack on the leash, though, and she's fine!

Good luck!

tikva18

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 2:13 pm

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

Fox, thanks for your message. I have noticed you posting about this child in the past and was amazed that there was another one like mine out there.

amother wrote:

asserting my authority is what gets me into fights with her in the first place.

Do you have my ds disguised as a girl? lol He will be an incredible CEO one day - not that that's what he wants to do. . .
And again, agreeing with you regarding your dd and authority, etc... traditional parenting does not necessarily work with this type of child.

Fox

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 2:25 pm

tikva18 wrote:

I'm just holding my breath for shidduchim! I have a feeling these kids will need "wind beneath my wings" types of spouses who don't mind holding down the home fort. Also, DD says she wants to marry someone who "has an interesting story" in life and "has really done something with his life." Sure, sweetie! The phone will no doubt be ringing off the hook with guys in their early 20s who have "done something" that she would consider noteworthy!

tikva18

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 2:32 pm

Fox wrote:

tikva18 wrote:

My ds is wondering why he can't get married already - lol - he's 15. I'm sure he'd only marry someone who would think for herself; that is one of his hugest pet peeves - when people blindly follow.

amother

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 2:33 pm

fox, you sound so proud of this dd. I hope in 10 years I will be posting on imamother the way you do about your dd.
its good to hear that the future looks good. I had visions this morning of sending her away to be raised, and getting her back as an adult. of course now that I've calmed down, thats not what I want, I just need direction on how to handle her.
the hardest part is not knowing for sure if giving in is right, and fearing that it will all backfire one day when I will have raised a manipulative controlling rebellious teen.

how did you handle the younger years?
also how far do you go out of your way to give her what she wants?
would you have driven her home so she could do what she wanted to do before school, after you had already parked in front of the school building? its not a danger, or yiddishkeit issue. so it doesnt fall into the category of "important to take a stand on" but when something seriously inconveniences you how far do I have to go just to give in? and how do I explain to her, this time I wont be giving in just because I simply dont have the patience or time to do it!

Fox

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 3:21 pm

tikva18 wrote:

My ds is wondering why he can't get married already - lol - he's 15. I'm sure he'd only marry someone who would think for herself; that is one of his hugest pet peeves - when people blindly follow.

Well, I'd suggest a shidduch, but I'm not sure the world could handle such a couple! LOL

amother wrote:

the hardest part is not knowing for sure if giving in is right, and fearing that it will all backfire one day when I will have raised a manipulative controlling rebellious teen.

This was the bogeyman that her principals and teachers threatened me with during her elementary school years. "If you give her an explanation for everything, she'll go OTD because she'll insist that she understand everything." "She has to learn to conform." "She won't be able to handle frustration as an adult if she doesn't learn now."

You know what?

All hockum. Every last word!

I don't want to give the impression that DD is an angel 100 percent of the time. There are many, many days when I'm ready to throttle her. But there's a huge difference between the kind of behavior we're discussing and being rebellious. DD is unimpressed simply because some guy calls himself "Rabbi" and gets a job as head of a yeshiva or shul. But once she found a rav whom she respected, she began consulting him on all kinds of things and takes his advice even when she doesn't like it.

Part of the problem is that we're currently in an era where "tough love" is greatly admired. No parent wants to be regarded as overly liberal or lenient, and sometimes I think people actually compete to see how strict they can be with their kids. But parenting philosophies have to meet the needs of the child, not the surrounding culture. Follow your instincts, see what works, and don't allow people who only have one parenting tool in their bags to sabotage your confidence.

amother wrote:

also how far do you go out of your way to give her what she wants?
would you have driven her home so she could do what she wanted to do before school, after you had already parked in front of the school building? its not a danger, or yiddishkeit issue. so it doesnt fall into the category of "important to take a stand on" but when something seriously inconveniences you how far do I have to go just to give in? and how do I explain to her, this time I wont be giving in just because I simply dont have the patience or time to do it!

I'd probably try to have a conversation something like this:

Quote:

MOM: Rivkie, first let me apologize for overreacting this morning when you were upset because you hadn't packed your own lunch.

RIVKIE: Um, okay.

MOM: I'm sure you're sorry for throwing a tantrum, too.

RIVKIE: Um, yeah, I guess.

MOM: Let's talk about what happened so we can make sure it doesn't happen in the future. I didn't understand how important it is to you to pack your own lunch. Am I correct that this is very important to you and that I didn't see that?

RIVKIE: Yeah! I'll pack it from now on.

MOM: Okay, that would fine. But we have to work out how that's going to happen, because I'm not going to remember when I'm making lunches that I should leave yours out, and we really can't have another scene like this morning. When do you want to make your lunch?

RIVKIE: I have to do it in the morning. It tastes yucky if I make it the night before.

MOM: That's fine, but that means you'll have to finish breakfast a little early. We need to leave the house at 7:50 a.m., and you usually have breakfast at 7:30. You'll need to finish eating and clearing your dishes by 7:40. Can you do that?

RIVKIE: Maybe.

MOM: Okay. Here's what we'll do. I'll remind you at 7:40 that you need to pack your lunch. But it's your job to do it right away. You will have to agree that if you don't do it at 7:40 for some reason, then I'll quickly pack the lunch and you'll take it without fussing.

RIVKIE: No, I can't eat it the way you pack it.

MOM: Yes, I get that, but we each have a problem. You need to pack your own lunch. I need to have everyone out of the house by 7:50. We have to find a solution that will solve both our problems.

RIVKIE: Well, I'm not going to eat the lunch if you pack it.

MOM: That's fine; it just means you'll need to pack it yourself. But I will only agree to do that if you agree to take responsibility. That means that if you don't do it for some reason, you can't complain.

RIVKIE: Okay. But can you pack the snacks. It's the sandwich that tastes yucky if it's made the night before. I'll just put my own sandwich in.

MOM: Sure! That sounds like it might work. Let's try it this week and see if it works or if we need to find another solution. If something goes wrong, though, let's find a solution rather than getting angry.

The key parts of this negotiation are as follows:

1. Mom apologized for losing her temper. This models the behavior that we apologize when we are wrong, and that apologizing does not make one weak.

2. Mom articulated both Rivkie's issue and her issue.

3. Mom avoided ridiculing Rivkie's issue. She treated it as reasonable.

4. Mom focused on finding a solution that met both Rivkie's need and her need.

5. Mom opened the door for future solutions.

Of course, real life is always less neat and tidy, and it's quite likely that Rivkie and Mom may go around on this topic again. But the template is now in place: Mom isn't challenging Rivkie's need or desire to make her own lunch; she's simply working with Rivkie to find a way to accommodate the need without throwing the family's schedule into chaos. It's the challenge that creates the defiance, not the search for a solution. In my own DD's case, I often found that she didn't particularly care about the solution -- she just wanted to feel respected.

BrachaC

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 3:39 pm

Simi Yellin calls this type of kid- an anti-authoratarian child. In her course she talks a lot about giving this kid all the choices in the world. For a 5 year old that means the parent does a lot of managing rather then directing- these type of kids need to know they can wear anything in the closet, play with anything in the play room etc or they are going to make a big deal about what they can't do. So you need to manage her closet- only things she can wear should be in there (not easy), toys that are not always apropriate should not be where she can choose them just to push your buttons etc.

marina

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 3:42 pm

Comparing a 5 year old and a 13 year old is difficult. You can try to use Explosive Child with the 5 year old, OP, but it is often of limited effectiveness with that age. Conversational exchanges are less effective than calm consistent consequences. Maybe your child is the exception, but I'm guessing if talking worked, you would have known by now.

When you write "asserting my authority is what gets me into fights with her in the first place. if I would be more caring and giving in to her, we wouldnt have fights," that is pretty much what I mean when I say that you are doing it wrong. Starting out with the attitude that by giving in to a child you will achieve peace and harmony is virtually a recipe for disaster.

Fox had a very good post on asserting authority in the classroom that is relevant to my point here. When you assert your authority, you cannot doubt yourself or lose control or react in any way other than complete calmness and casualness. "Oh, well, you have to stay in your room for the third day in a row, we'll miss you. Hugs."

Tikvah, I rarely write about my kids so it always amuses me when people assume what I have and don't have. Thanks for amusing me today.

Last edited by marina on Wed, Feb 23 2011, 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 3:49 pm

Fox, it seems that OP is describing a child with whom the conversation would go like this:

Quote:

MOM: Rivkie, first let me apologize for overreacting this morning when you were upset because you hadn't packed your own lunch.

RIVKIE: Um, okay

MOM: I'm sure you're sorry for throwing a tantrum, too.

RIVKIE: no, you're stupid. You made me throw a tantrum because you're so stupid and didn't let me make my lunch.

MOM: Let's talk about what happened so we can make sure it doesn't happen in the future. I didn't understand how important it is to you to pack your own lunch. Am I correct that this is very important to you and that I didn't see that?

RIVKIE: If you don't want it to happen again, leave me alone and don't bother me.

But by all means, OP, don't let me stop you. If you think that your child can be rational enough to discuss the situation and come up with a compromise that you both can live with, and then follow through and remember that conversation in the heat of the moment, go for it. The vast majority of 5 year olds are not up to that at all.

Fox

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 4:40 pm

marina wrote:

If you think that your child can be rational enough to discuss the situation and come up with a compromise that you both can live with, and then follow through and remember that conversation in the heat of the moment, go for it. The vast majority of 5 year olds are not up to that at all.

Oh, I agree that my example was that of a highly verbal child who is able to discuss abstract concepts. The good news is that many defiant or "authority-challenged" kids actually are more verbal than their age might suggest. The bad news is that you are correct that they often have mouths on them that make you seriously wonder if the hospital or midwife will accept returns.

My approach would probably be to keep coming back to the fact that we have to find a solution rather than placing blame. The biggest difference in parenting a defiant child, IMHO, is that the whole punishment-reward cycle doesn't work too well. I can assure you that my DD would rather be confined to her room until she's 30 than give in. I once had the LCSW at her school tell me that she had literally never met a more stubborn child. So, yeah, it's always three steps forward and two steps back!

momof2sofar

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 7:10 pm

WOW! I have a child very similar to this. My ds is 5 (almost 6) acts defiantly and anti-authoritativelyand is also highly intelligent and verbal. I have a dd a little older and she is a perfect angel so it is so hard to parent both of them differently. I learned very early on that my children need very "different" mothers. What I find works with my son is giving tons of positive reinforcement when he is behaving well. Also, I know this is not the best parenting stategy for some, but I love bribes. Races also work for him. Like, "let's see who can finish getting dressed first". He is a challenging child and I've known that since he was an infant. The hardest thing for me is when he has a teacher who just doesn't get him. It is so frustrating for him and me.

imasinger

Wed, Feb 23 2011, 7:31 pm

This is so like my 8 year old! We try to work things out in advance, but sometimes, life just isn't like that.

One thing that has been helpful is building social skills/flexibility. Michelle Winner's book, "Thinking Social" cost a lot, but was worth every penny in terms of coming up with ideas that we practice and find helpful. One of the best -- lots of different characters with different common social skills issues. We all try hard not to be too much like "Rock Brain", who gets stuck on one thing, and instead, to be like "Superflex", who can be flexible. We make up puppet shows and stories at home, and complement superflex behavior (the kids will now even comment on the grownups!)

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