Hishtadlus vs. Bitachon

mali

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 5:23 pm

I spoke to a woman today about Dor Yesharim, and she told me that she got married without being tested, because their Rav told them to do so.

Does anyone have experience with such a case, or something similar, where, instead of doing it the natural way, people opt for "emunah and bitachon" only?

I felt there was something wrong with it. How can a Rav take the responsiblity over such a crucial matter? And how can the couple blindly trust the Rav? (see Daas Torah thread Wink

) What would happen if a year later CH"V this couple would have a sick child, a situation that could easily have been avoided with one simple test?

Aren't we supposed to do our utmost B'derech Hateva?

Motek

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 5:30 pm

From the Life Insurance thread:

ILOVELIFE wrote:

My school offered the teachers free life-insurance. I didn't take it. Reason: I BH have a wonderful Rebbe of a wonderful chasidus that holds that life insurance is out. We feel it's a breach of bitachon and it's like saying "I'll prob die early CH"V so lemme do s/thing about it" Health insurance is very diff as it's almost inevitable that even one who is perfectly healthy will need a doctor for well visits and the like aand so why not save money. We're not getting health insurance cuz we think Ch'v we'll be struck with a life threatening illness etc.

mali

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 5:41 pm

I don't know what people replied there, but I can only speak for myself. DH and I both have life insurance. It costs peanuts - just about as much as our Rosh Chodesh pizza costs us.

Now, we trust in Hashem to give us Arichus Yamim. But I have come across too many cases where families literally starved because the supporter of the family passed away. Isn't it enough that they have to deal with the grief of losing a close family member? Why should they have to deal with serious Parnassah issues too?

I think NOT getting life insurance because

Quote:

We feel it's a breach of bitachon and it's like saying "I'll prob die early CH"V so lemme do s/thing about it"

is a lack of Bitachon. Hashem can do anything. You think someone under the age of seventy can't die? Confused

Back to Dor Yesharim. Is it showing Bitachon, or a lack of it? We believe Hashem can give any couple a sick baby CH"V. Does that mean we don't have to do the bare minimum to avoid having one?? I think someone who doesn't do it is a Chassid Shoteh. Hashem is the one who gave us this tool, and we have to use it!

Motek

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 5:53 pm

The life insurance thread is in this (intell) section. Remember, she wrote:

Quote:

I BH have a wonderful Rebbe of a wonderful chasidus that holds that life insurance is out.

If that's what he holds and he's their Rebbe, you don't have to agree but I don't think anybody should knock it directly.

Same for Dor Yesharim - if that's what their rav said, what's there to say?

We're always saying ASK A RAV, so now that these people have a rav/rebbe, posters are going to say why these people are idiots? Confused

mali

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 5:58 pm

Motek wrote:

Remember, she wrote:

Quote:

I BH have a wonderful Rebbe of a wonderful chasidus that holds that life insurance is out.

Okay, if that would be her only reason, I'd accept it, but she added her own insight, as to why it "makes sense". When it's a Hora'ah from the Rebbe, I follow it, without necessarily understanding the logic behind it. I was commenting on her explanation, saying it makes no sense.

Quote:

We're always saying ASK A RAV, so now that these people have a rav/rebbe, posters are going to say why these people are idiots? Confused

Is this a Halachic question

mali

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 6:08 pm

Here's something I don't necessarily agree with, but can someone here answer it:

My friend once told me she got a brochure in the mail with a detailed description of a family in need, including photos. The poor family had 13 children, a sick father LA, and a mother who was collapsing. Worst of all was the fact that the ninth child was sickly, and needed full-time care plus tons of medical expenses. So here's my friend's question:

If the parents had a sickly child that required so much attention and money, how in the world did they go ahead and have four more? No wonder they are now begging for help!

What do we answer such a Ta'aneh?

shalhevet

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 6:28 pm

There is a difference with something that is quite likely to happen, b'derech hateva, as against something which is not.

For example if you take 1000 people then it is pretty likely that 900 plus will need to see a doctor (or for their family) during the next year. Therefore it is derech ha'olam to go to a doctor and it would go against that not to have medical insurance. (Rather like not buying food, because Hashem will provide it) Only people on a very high level of emuna will decide that they will never need a doctor and so don't need health insurance.

Now take 1000 people again. How many will, ch"v, die young in today's world? No idea on statistics, but it will (Be'ezras Hashem) be very few. In other words it is derech ha'olam that people live till at least 70 or 80 today. So someone on a reasonable level of emuna can say that they trust in Hashem that they will be one of the happy large majority. Not only that, but it says that a person should make sure someone has many friends before RH because Hashem takes into account all the people who will be affected if something happens to Ploni. Following this train of thought, it will give Hashem another reason not to have something happen to a person because of the hardship on his family.

Same with Dor Yesharim. People on a high level of emuna (faith) can say that the odds, b'derech hateva are very low of Tay Sachs. So they can trust in Hashem that He will not let it happen. Even a couple with two carriers have a 1:4 chance of having a child with it ie they could have only healthy children.

Another point is that brocho is only found on what is hidden. If someone has a problem and doesn't find out it is much 'easier' for Hashem to perform a miracle since Hashem, so to speak, doesn't "like" changing nature.

shalhevet

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 7:02 pm

No, I'm saying that if something usually happens it is called hishtadlus to take it into account. (E.g. it is normal hishtadlus to eat, because the vast majority of people will die if they don't. Wink

)

But if it's a very unlikely occurence we don't have to say 'and what if ...' because we could end up wasting our time/efforts/money on things that almost certainly won't happen. So in those cases we can say " I don't have to hire a zoo-keeper to guard my house as hishtadlus in case a lion escapes from a nearby zoo and comes to my house." Wink

I can rely on Hashem, because it is not derech haolam for it to happen anyway.

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 13 2006, 5:30 am

mali, did you read my posts?

I was trying to explain that there is a difference in whether you have to do hishtadlus if something often happens or if it is rare. You don't have to take every single possibility into account.

It is relatively rare for someone to have a child with a serious genetic disease, r"l.

I am not, ch"v, trying to give a psak here. I know many, many rabbonim recommend testing with Dor Yesharim. Each person has to ask their own rav. Also an answer for someone in a family which has known carriers may be different from that with a family which doesn't.

Also, answers from rabbonim concerning issues of hishtadlus and bitochon may be very different for different people depending on their individual levels of bitochon, even coming from the same rav.

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 13 2006, 5:48 am

mali wrote:

I think someone in that situation, r"l, should have asked a rav if they were ALLOWED to have more children. And according to what the rav said they were right / wrong.

But now that that is the situation we have to help them (if we can) whether or not they asked a rav / followed what he said.

amother

Wed, Sep 13 2006, 10:29 am

I did not get tested before we were married. we didnt even know about such testing untill we were engaged and we were not going to break it off b/c of that, so we went full steam ahead, into our life together, and we had a loooot of bitachon in HaShem.

what else could we do? we had done our hishdalut in finding our zivug and now we hope with a loooooooot of bitachon in HaShem that everything will be ok.

we will IYH soon, get tested for tay saches, but other ones, we were told to find out about each test indivudually.

amother

Wed, Sep 13 2006, 10:46 am

mummyof6 wrote:

Did you ask a rav about testing for Tay-Sachs once you are already married?
I know many rabbonim who are in favour of testing couples before marriage are against it once they are already married.

I have not gone to a rav about this. I asked my doctor and she said that in the medical feild, it is a must if both ppl in the couple are ashekenazi, the test will almost certainly be done.

amother

Wed, Sep 13 2006, 10:51 am

mali wrote:

What will you do if you CH"V find out you're both carriers? If you had the Bitachon to get married, your Bitachon should continue to lead your way.

you are correct, but we did not know any better before.

now already we know that we should have been tested so we want to know so that if CH"V something comes up, we can go to a genetic counselor and they can tell us our options.

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 13 2006, 10:55 am

amother wrote:

what else could we do? we had done our hishdalut in finding our zivug and now we hope with a loooooooot of bitachon in HaShem that everything will be ok.

I'm sorry, but if you think you should get tested now, which would have much more serious consequences if, ch"v, you were both found to be carriers, then the reason you didn't get tested before marriage was not bitachon. If you have bitachon you will continue to rely on Hashem that everything is okay. If you test and find you are both carriers, ch"v, then what will you do?